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Thread: Entry Level Sliding Table Saw....HELP?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    53,294
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    Location will determine what is reasonable priced on the used market. A poster in Germany has already replied. Carefully read his post since I think he is local to you.
    Bill D
    OP appears to be in the US based on his first post and concerns with support.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  2. #17
    Jon, I'm going to avoid a "Tell me what to buy"-type reply but to answer your questions about why one level of slider cost more than another, here is what you need to know about European manufacturers (regardless of brand). Sliders generally fall into two categories: For the hobby or for the industry. That is the price difference you are seeing. Machines for the hobby generally have a chassis more like a traditional American cabinet saw, square and boxy. Sliding table lengths are generally shorter (limited by chassis design/size) and the saw unit that houses the main and scoring blades is typically of the pillow block-type, where the cut dimension between the sawblade and rip fence (or crosscut fence) changes as you tilt the sawblade. Machines at this level, if they have scoring, will ordinarily have what is called a "slaved" scoring unit, where the scoring blade is driven by a secondary belt off the main saw arbor. These are all features designed to make the machine as economical as possible.

    Machines for the industry ordinarily have a chassis designed like a "T", with the top of the T supporting most or all the length of the sliding table. This is for strength and stability. Machines at this level almost always have what is called a double-hung saw unit, where the iron casting that houses the main and scoring units hangs from twin trunions that bolt to the underside of the cast iron table. Again, for maximum strength and accuracy. Scoring is almost always driven by a dedicated motor on machines at this level. These are all design features that put long-term accuracy and reliability ahead of cost.

    These are just the basics. Obviously each manufacturer will have their own unique bells and whistles. You can get great machines at both levels. Just depends on what your budget is and where you want to put that money. Hope this helps,

    Erik
    Felder USA Territory Representative: Central & South Texas

  3. #18
    If you have room, get a minimum 8.5" stroke saw. It will allow working with full size panels for cabinetmaking and ripping up to 8' without removing the crosscut fence.

    Consider a used industrial level saw with a phase converter. There are plenty of affordable older SCMI, Altendorf, even Martin in usable shape.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cache Valley, Utah
    Posts
    1,564
    Last year I bit the bullet, rearranged my shop and bought an SC4E. I sold my 12/14 Delta cabinet saw, 12" Rockwell RAS and one of my Delta shapers to make room for it, and I haven't regretted the purchase for a second. If you can manage it I'd strongly recommend going to the IWFA show in Atlanta this summer or AWFS in Vegas next summer. You can usually get a pretty good deal at one of the national shows. I bought my slider from Sam Blasco last year and everything worked out great, and I also had a chance to meet Eric and look at his saws.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    NE Connecticut
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cav View Post
    Last year I bit the bullet, rearranged my shop and bought an SC4E. I sold my 12/14 Delta cabinet saw, 12" Rockwell RAS and one of my Delta shapers to make room for it, and I haven't regretted the purchase for a second. If you can manage it I'd strongly recommend going to the IWFA show in Atlanta this summer or AWFS in Vegas next summer. You can usually get a pretty good deal at one of the national shows. I bought my slider from Sam Blasco last year and everything worked out great, and I also had a chance to meet Eric and look at his saws.
    FYI - the IWFA is cancelled this year.


  6. #21
    I say get in where you fit in and figure out on your own where that is.

    I know I was dissuaded whenever I started building my shop by the difference of 5-11k.

    Or 3 phase vrs single.

    The fact is after massive disappointment in entry level felder not hammer machines I have now sold and re purchased every machine. Well Iím almost there. I canít say Iím felder free just yet.

    Electrical and all. I knew in my gut early on about the initial cost of a phase converter and ignored it. You know how ignoring our guy goes right.. Fact is I had to ignore it as my first two purchasers ďfelderĒ cost me $21k and I didnít have the money in the budget for the phase converter or electrician as a guy making $35hr

    The facts are two fold. You gotta figure out your expectations. If your at all picky and or know the difference between ďnice and NICEĒ well then even that $11k scm ainít very nice.

    Iíll use it as it relates to home renovations. Some people, clients family members friends are delighted by work and materials that make my insides hurt to think someone spent their hard earned money on. While others like me have a hard time outfitting a custom entry door in anything less than $4-6k in hardware and thatís just nuts!

    Sadly I had the misfortune early on in my career of being exposed to the Uber high end of customs home building. I know of brands manufactures and practices that most would never even know just walking into a home it shop. Someone said once you use good you canít ever go back and if you have never used the higher end stuff you just canít understand why or how it matters. Some guy will always say I know craftsman that can make circles around you with Home Depot tools and your fancy shop. I doubt it as Iím a pretty good maker of stuff but I bet he can make just as good. The question is do you want to. I donít....

    Point Iím trying to make is some people are happy with grizzly and others like me will use the machine for a week before dragging it out the shop or throwing it through the dam window orbb b like old shop mate if mine beating the thing to death with a stick daily out of frustration.

    But thatís me and I have probably stupid high expectations of everything including myself.

    All manufactures can have issues And at the end of the day if you want your machines tip top you gotta learn how to calibrate and maintain them.

    My experience has been more expensive machines hold calibrations without having to constantly redo them.

    My other experiences working with other makers is they just donít hold or canít take them. Thatís all my felder gear.

    Some are ok with wee snipe ďjust cut it outĒ or blade not perfectly aligned to a T slot or or or if that you spend less. If not buckle up buttercup as Mark H around here would say.

    Best be wealthy or get a second job..
    Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 07-02-2020 at 6:50 PM.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    115
    First off, i'd like to say THANK YOU, to all of you. I've been on lumberjocks and other car forums for years and people don't seem to be nice there. I almost didn't even post my question. None of you told me i'm a noob, dumb, out of my league, ect. ect. You people rock!

    Quote Originally Posted by glenn bradley View Post
    Too true. You are stepping up to another tier of machines and need to adjust your price range accordingly.
    Gotta pay to play i guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    Location will determine what is reasonable priced on the used market. A poster in Germany has already replied. Carefully read his post since I think he is local to you.
    Bill D

    I'm in Wisconsin USA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    If you have room, get a minimum 8.5" stroke saw. It will allow working with full size panels for cabinetmaking and ripping up to 8' without removing the crosscut fence.

    I was just bitching about having to rip a full 4x8 sheet for a tray i was building for my Jeep Gladiator roof rack. Partially setting up the saw horses, moving the track, getting the saw out, moving kids toys, ect......Can't wait for my new shop, and i'm inching closer and closer to just getting a 8.5' sliding table saw and being set for ......a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Zeller View Post
    rotary phase converter. So stick with your budget (chances are you will still go over it). Another option might be a panel saw and a cabinet saw.

    I forgot about those rotary phase converters. I was thinking 3phase was out because i'd have to run a 3rd leg from the power company. I remember an industrial mechanic friend telling me about rotary phase converters before, so I guess 3phase is still an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian W Evans View Post
    I have a Minimax (SCM) SC4 Elite. ......It comes standard with the scoring blade, which is fantastic for working with sheet goods.
    The SC4E needs 20' front to back and close to that side to side if you want full cutting capacity to the right of the blade. .

    There is a mobility kit available for the SC4E. I believe it involves a couple of wheels attached to the saw and a lever with wheels attached - it's not a mobile base.
    Does it come standard with a scoring blade that runs off the primary motor, or come standard with its own motor?
    The space needed is something I had a question about. If the table is only 8.5’ long, Why would it need 20’ front to back? Is it just so that you can actually walk in front of or behind it?
    Also if it has a 50” rip capacity to the right of blade, and you put say an 8’ sheet of plywood on the sliding table to the left of blade, wouldn’t this only be 12 ish feet of space from left to right?

    I’ll look into the mobility kit, but at 1500 lbs and its size; hopefully I can just set it and leave it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Kane View Post
    If you can only have one saw, i would strongly encourage 8-9' if you can fit it. Especially if you are doing two kitchens worth of cabinets. The cost of the longer stroke would almost be worth it for just those two jobs. I have an older Felder 700, and I would probably go that direction if given the choice all over again. Id rather have a 15 year old Felder than a new Grizzly. Id be amiss if i recommended blowing your entire budget on a slider though. If you plan on doing the cabinet jobs first for the next year before doing any furniture work, then you can get away without having a jointer, but that is an awfully critical component, in my opinion. Sure, you can edge joint on your 8' slider, but that doesnt do squat for truing boards.

    Where are you located?
    Central Wisconsin, good points about the jointer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh View Post
    I say get in where you fit in and figure out on your own where that is.

    I know I was dissuaded whenever I started building my shop by the difference of 5-11k.

    Or 3 phase vrs single.

    The fact is after massive disappointment in entry level felder not hammer machines I have now sold and re purchased every machine. Well I’m almost there. I can’t say I’m felder free just yet.

    Electrical and all. I knew in my gut early on about the initial cost of a phase converter and ignored it. You know how ignoring our guy goes right.. Fact is I had to ignore it as my first two purchasers “felder” cost me $21k and I didn’t have the money in the budget for the phase converter or electrician as a guy making $35hr

    The facts are two fold. You gotta figure out your expectations. If your at all picky and or know the difference between “nice and NICE” well then even that $11k scm ain’t very nice.

    I’ll use it as it relates to home renovations. Some people, clients family members friends are delighted by work and materials that make my insides hurt to think someone spent their hard earned money on. While others like me have a hard time outfitting a custom entry door in anything less than $4-6k in hardware and that’s just nuts!

    Sadly I had the misfortune early on in my career of being exposed to the Uber high end of customs home building. I know of brands manufactures and practices that most would never even know just walking into a home it shop. Someone said once you use good you can’t ever go back and if you have never used the higher end stuff you just can’t understand why or how it matters. Some guy will always say I know craftsman that can make circles around you with Home Depot tools and your fancy shop. I doubt it as I’m a pretty good maker of stuff but I bet he can make just as good. The question is do you want to. I don’t....

    Point I’m trying to make is some people are happy with grizzly and others like me will use the machine for a week before dragging it out the shop or throwing it through the dam window orbb b like old shop mate if mine beating the thing to death with a stick daily out of frustration.

    But that’s me and I have probably stupid high expectations of everything including myself.

    All manufactures can have issues And at the end of the day if you want your machines tip top you gotta learn how to calibrate and maintain them.

    My experience has been more expensive machines hold calibrations without having to constantly redo them.

    My other experiences working with other makers is they just don’t hold or can’t take them. That’s all my felder gear.

    Some are ok with wee snipe “just cut it out” or blade not perfectly aligned to a T slot or or or if that you spend less. If not buckle up buttercup as Mark H around here would say.

    Best be wealthy or get a second job..
    Thanks Patrick, lots of good advice here. Hopefully I can just make a few thousand more between now and pulling the trigger and get the nicer 9-11k saw.
    Last edited by Jon Steffen; 07-02-2020 at 10:25 PM.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Rochester, Minn
    Posts
    145
    I am a fan of used, mostly because you can get more machine. 3 weeks ago I purchased a Felder 700 S pro saw/shaper (from north of Green Bay) for 7K, about 1/2 of the price of new, still the most I've ever spent on a machine. (The $ for shaper tooling --wow!) My 6" Yates jointer, which purrs like a kitten, is from the 1920s, and at the time I got it $150 was what I could afford. Since your garage isn't up yet, take some time to look around. You might find something, you might not.
    Terry T.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    115
    where do you look to find used equipment like this?

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Willard,Utah
    Posts
    149
    I bought the shop fox slider, which is the same as the grizzly, and it's been a great machine. My previous machine was a10' SCM slider, but it was also over 15k. For 3500.00 I am very happy with the shop fox/grizzly, and would definitely recommend it. I have a small shop so a larger unit was not going to work. It is very accurate and unless you are cutting 8' lengths all day, it will work great for you.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    115
    how do i send you a pm on this forum? maybe i don't have enough regular posts to get pm capability? i clicked on your name, no conversation, dm, pm thingy is there........

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    499
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Steffen View Post
    where do you look to find used equipment like this?
    Wait outside Patrick's window for the next saw to come flying through.

    If you were in Germany, I could take you to at least five shops within a 50km radius that specialize in buying, refurbishing, and restoring high end production equipment. The shop where I bought my SC2 Classic is also a Martin retailer, but has several used Martin and Altendorf saws ready for a new home. One of the Martin saws is larger than my shop. They work with production shops that upgrade equipment regularly and replace existing equipment while it still serviceable for the secondary market.

    I suspect there are many similar used equipment shops in the States.

  13. #28
    For used machines Craigslist (widen your search area as needed), Woodweb, Sawmill Creek classifieds, MachineKing, Ex-Factory, machinery dealers that take old ones in trade. I like dealing directly with the seller but you have to be able to assess the machine's condition.

    Phase converters can come cheap. I put one together from a used 10 hp motor, a control panel and a used subpanel for distribution for about $500.

    The actual table stroke is typically longer than the table so the workpiece can clear the scoring and main saws on in and outfeed, that's why an 8.5' saw needs about 20' clear.

    Width-wise you need the rip capacity plus the width of the fence casting to the right of the saw. On mine that is about 55" total. At least 8' to the left for sheet goods plus maneuvering room, the more the better.

  14. #29
    I'll through my $0.02 in.... I have my shop in our 1.5 car garage, during the week there is a car parked in there. I started woodworking with a benchtop tablesaw, which I quickly outgrew and then started looking to upgrade to a better saw. Budget was a consideration, as always, but not the top one. I wanted to find a top-quality saw that would last and most importantly, fit into my available space. I came across the Felder equipment, specifically the "hobby" line Hammer, and seriously considered a short stroke Hammer slider. I also looked at the sawstop, for the quality as well as the extra safety feature. My space available for the saw while "parked" was wide but not very deep. Whichever saw would fit where I needed, and could easily be moved into the working position when the car is out of the garage on the weekends, was going to fit the bill. At the time, it seemed to me that the hobby-level sliders I was looking at really needed just a bit more space than what I had available. So I went with the SawStop PCS and their industrial mobile base. I have no doubt I would have been happy with a Hammer slider, but the SawStop is a wonderful machine and has been dead-accurate; a pleasure to use. If I need to rip long, wide pieces I have a Festool tracksaw - works great. I think for a hobby woodworker this setup is more than adequate. If I ever move to a new house with more shop space, I might eventually get a slider. I did finally get my hammer...in the form of an a3-41 16" jointer-planer combo machine.

  15. #30
    If you are in a position to just save “ a few thousand more I suggest that” some people just are not of that mindset though and see a few thousand more as well a few thousand more. In light of a machine that cost $5k vrs $10 I see it as small jump being you will hopefully have it forever. But honestly other than a group online of other woodworking professionals and non most ever woodworker I know does not feel that way as they like there money in the bank or spent set the golf course or on a boat or or or.

    My work is my fun, if hit the lottery tomorrow I’d still spend 8 hrs a day in my shop just building what I want. So for me my tools are like a nice car, a boat, fancy lawn mower, a vacation with the family some kind of upgrade to the inside or outside of my house.

    Where I do draw the line is when machine start approaching $50K plus. I just can’t see her to there. When such nice used machines can be had. On th flip side I can’t see spending $40k on used machine you may or may not have problems with. Sadly on the flip side of that is regardless of warranty once the machine is in your possession it’s gonna be your problem for the most part regardless of manufacture. Point is lots of merit to buying a higher end used machine. On the flip side it will be fully on you to get it up and running, calibrated and working to your satisfaction. Depending that could be a royal pain the ass or a great learning experience.

    I guess I’m trying to say is I can’t afford a brand new saw that meets my expectations so A high end used has to be answer. And I’ve learnt my lessons with lower end equipment like ten times over now. At this point that’s just banging my head off the wall to keep buying low end machines. But again it seems many are happy with them so there is always that, maybe you would be one of those dare I say people lol..

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