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Thread: Sharpening progression, Grits & Strokes?

  1. #1
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    Sharpening progression, Grits & Strokes?

    I originally had a two grit combo stone I think it was 800/4000 or 1000/4000 grit (waterstones).
    This worked but I felt like it took forever to get the polish up to 4000. (This was also before I started using microbevels).

    I now have a set of 800/1000/3000/6000/8000/10000 stones. (I couldn't decide on which 3 to make a "set", so I just bought 'em all)
    I've discovered I don't need the 800 unless I nick the blade on something.

    So my routine of late has been to sharpen starting with the 1000 and working my way up to 10000. I can't really ever seem to feel a burr develop on anything beyond the 1000.

    My goal was to be able to work quickly through the grits as my theory being I could do something like 20 strokes on each grit vs. a few hundred strokes trying to go from the 100 to the 4000 (I never counted, but that number sounds about right from my recollection).

    How many strokes do you guys typically use to get good results before moving up?

    Also, is the reason I'm not feeling a burr develop because I'm in contact with the stone both push/pull strokes?
    Should I be just going in one direction? I saw David Charlesworth in a recent post suggest that beginners start with just the pull stroke only. That got me thinking...

    (Hmm, just double checked I actually own his plane sharpening video, but have yet to watch it. I'm going to do that now. )

  2. #2
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    Regular sharpening:

    Usually, few swipes (10-15) on strop freshens up the blade. My strop is veg tan leather glued on 8"x3" MDF with green compound.

    If that does not do the trick, I use 12K shapton. Something like 50 back and forth swipes raises the burr. I can feel it with finger tips.

    Very rarely I end up using 5k shapton. Usually after I abuse a chisel, and there are fine/micro chips on edge.

    In even more rarer cases, I drop to DMT Extra Fine.

    I have started regular sharpening by hand. It takes like 2-3 minutes to get chisels sharp.

    I am normally able to get a edge that can pass hair shaving or paper cut tests, with okayish marks.

    Non-regular sharpening: Read resetting bevel. This is a chore and have not got the process right yet.

  3. #3
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    Many accomplished and knowledgeable experts, including lots of folks here, have varying sharpening regimens that bring them success. This creates a community with an abundance of valuable advice for those of us who just want to make sure we’re doing it “right.”

    I recommend you crack open your Charlesworth DVD and study its steps. While he doesn’t use or teach every method under the sun, his method works, and has the virtue of being highly predictable, with results reproducible every time. What more can one ask?

    Once you’ve worn down your first 1000 stone, you’ll have the method down to habit. That’s when the nuances of the diverse experts will make more sense for you. You can decide then what to take in and what to leave out.

  4. #4
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    I'm more empirical in sharpening - I feel for a Burr on the back (flat side) of plane irons and chisels.

    Once that's detected, go to the next finer step.

    If you're unsure, verify the presence of a burr with bright light and a magnifying glass.

    (If you can see a bright reflection - it's not sharp.)

    I slice paper as a test; it should *whisk* through, without dragging.

  5. #5
    You definitely have to have a burr before proceeding to next grit. You may need to experiment feeling with other parts of the body rather than fingertips, such as the inside of your forearm.

    Also, if you're having difficulty getting a burr, I would start at a lower grit. Depending on how far past due the edge is, I've gone as low as 300 just to get that edge started. But even for a touch up, I'm usually starting with 800.

    I usually go 12-15 strokes once the burr is established. At 8000 I can still feel a burr, but just barely. Past that its impossible for me. Although I occasionally go to 12K, I usually stop at 8K and do a few strops. This system has worked very well for me.

    If freehand sharpening, do not hold the tool perpendicular to the stone. I hold the chisel or iron at a skewed angle, I sharpen on both going on the push and pull, with the exception of very narrow chisels. If I'm crowning or easing the edge of a plane iron, only on pull strokes.

    With a skewed approach the thing to watch for is making sure the edge stays parallel, especially with narrower chisels.

    As Jim mentioned, you might try a jewelers magnification light.

  6. #6
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    I never feel for a burr. When the cutter feels like it's slicing into the surface of the stone, that one is done, and move on to the next one. That's different than sticktion, but the feel is there on oil stones, and water stones that are not extremely hard. There is no such feel on diamond "stones".

    The smaller the progression of grits, the fewer the number of strokes on each, but I never count strokes.

  7. #7
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    Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

  8. #8
    I probably will get called a hack for this, but I just do a hollow grind with the Tormek, freehand a small secondary bevel with a 4000 waterstone, and then quickly freehand the edge on the Tormek strop wheel and call it good (this assumes all the normal pre prep work, like back flattening and polishing, has already been done).

    Three reasons for this method. First, I hate sharpening, so I want to do it as fast and good as possible. Second, the more grits and steps you have, the more likely you are to round your bevel, which normally ruins your edge. Third, it works plenty good for what I do. I touch up the edges on the 4000 waterstone and strope when they start to get dull. I redo the primary bevel when touching up the edge takes longer than my patience lasts.

  9. #9
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    I'm using Vertias (Mk II) honing guides.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich Weidner View Post
    Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?
    When I'm in the middle of a long planing session, or if a chisel edge has suffered no damage, my starting grit is 6k most of the time. The coarser grits are just for initial shaping, or correcting damage that doesn't require a grinder. After grinding, I start at the bottom of the progression.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Erich Weidner View Post
    Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?
    Touching up I start with a 1250 diamond stone. If I'm not getting a burr after 20-30 strokes, I drop back to 800.

    I think you'll find general agreement if you do not get a burr, you have not sharpened to the edge.

    If you're using a honing guide, the secondary bevel set up is critical. Marking the edge with a sharpie will tell you where you're at.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich Weidner View Post
    Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?
    I do this with chisels pretty often. The very edge can get slightly ragged (not talking about actual chipping) and 30 seconds on the soft ark then translucent will fix that.

    Plane irons wear much more in use and so require more material to be removed to restore the edge geometry. In my case they require the fine india to raise a burr and get past the wear bevel in a reasonable amount of time. So I never really do "touch up" sharpening on plane irons- if they come out of the plane they are going through the whole routine (fine india > soft ark > translucent - which is still only two or three minutes most of the time).

    All of this is assuming there is no actual damage to the edge like a visible chip. If that's there then I'm going to something coarser than a fine india. This is very rare now but seemed to happen a lot when I was beginning for some reason. It skewed my perspective on how much work sharpening entailed and led me down some rabbit holes. Once I got past the beginner clumsiness with the tools, sharpening doesn't such a big deal. I sharpen much faster with much "slower" stones.

  13. #13
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    My sharpening is almost all done freehand, flat bevel without intentional secondary bevel.

    The starting grit depends on the condition of the edge and bevel. Most of the time when a small nick or edge deterioration is noticed it can be restored with a hard Arkansas stone, black Arkansas and stropping.

    If there is a large nick or the edge or the bevel has developed convexity or other deformity it will either be treated on a softer or more aggressive Arkansas stone.

    If a blade is real bad it will be reground on a Veritas Mk.II power sharpening system. < (that's a link, click it.)

    In some case such as a new purchase the blade may be mounted in a sharpening guide and treated to a ride on a four foot piece of abrasive sheet mounted on a hunk of granite.

    With water stones, some light wear can be restored with a 4000 stone followed by an 8000 stone and stropping to remove any burr if needed.

    Stropping isn't always done after using an 8000 stone.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 06-23-2020 at 1:52 PM. Reason: words, words, words
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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  14. #14
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    Erich I follow Robert's method. I use water stones: Chosera 800 (more recently added to the lineup) - either Shapton or Sigma 1,000 - Sigma 6,000 - Sigma 13,000 grit sizes. For chisel work (esp hard material), I will frequently do a few (10?) quick strokes on the 6,000 and then the 13,000. When I decide that the tool is definitely in need of sharpening, then I start from scratch and feel for a burr. I have recently started dropping back to 800 as a starting point and that one takes the most work (20? 30? strokes?). I don't always feel a burr on the 6,000 stone and don't think I ever feel one on the 13,00 stone, but the tools are getting sharp. For plane irons, I always start from scratch, both on 0-1 or A-2. It helps to have some type of "sharpening station" out and set up for quick use.
    David

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich Weidner View Post
    Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

    I am usually sharpening to music so I tend to do 8, 12 maybe 16 reps. I touch up as fine as will work. I will typically give the edge a backwards swipe on a 1200 or 4000 surface and take a look. We are dealing with scratch patterns here. The finest scratch pattern that will address the current state is what I shoot for. I do not go back to 600 or 1000 to touch up. That just adds deep scratches that I have to eliminate by moving through the grits to get back to honing. I do the full run through if I have to repair something but, for refreshing an edge or a micro-bevel, I do not.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

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