Sharpening progression, Grits & Strokes?

[steven c newman]

I worry more about what each stone is doing, rather than counting strokes...even on a strop....

[Jim Matthews]

Are folks generally using finer stones for touch-up sharpening? Or once the cut quality diminishes, going back to the course stone then working up to finer grits?

Yep.
If I can see a notch in the edge, regrinding on coarse grit is required. Otherwise, straight to the fine stone and strop.

[Brandon Speaks]

I tend to often go right to a strop on my carving tools and sometimes on the chisels though not as often as I should. Its not super frequent I start out below 6k grit though. On just a strop I dont feel any kind of burr though I always think of that as really just polishing, on a stone if there is no burr your not really sharpening has always been my perspective.

On planes I dont sharpen as often so have to start rougher sometimes, 2 k stone is fairly common.

[Warren Mickley]

On a rainy Sunday in May I watched four or five videos of guys making half blind dovetails. All of them started out by saying how essential a sharp chisel was; within the first minute, all abused the chisel so badly that it was no longer sharp. Twisting, scraping, prying and others.

If you beat up the edge like this, work on a fine stone or strop will straighten up the edge and make an improvement. If you have very clean technique, the edge dulls by wear rather than bending and chipping. In this case it is best to go to a coarser stone to get rid of the rounding or worn areas, and then use the finer stones to polish the edge.

[Will Blick]

Great question.... whether a newb or experienced, this thread is useful.

Your question of what grit to start with after you have dulled an edge is one everyone wonders...

IMO, it depends... on how bad the edge is abused. But without an electron microscope, we dont really know. So your premise of starting at 2k and working up, is not a bad one...that is what I do with my plane irons. I actually start at 4k and go to 15k or 30K
However, I think you are way overkill on the strokes... maybe 10 strokes on the first grit to assure straightness, then only 3-4 strokes on the next grits... even long strokes on a FLAT stone, then clean off the burr on the side of the stone, either free hand or use ruler trick. I waste more time flattening my stones than sharpening. I sharpen 2 blades, then re flatten.

[Erich Weidner]

However, I think you are way overkill on the strokes... maybe 10 strokes on the first grit to assure straightness, then only 3-4 strokes on the next grits... even long strokes on a FLAT stone, then clean off the burr on the side of the stone, either free hand or use ruler trick. I waste more time flattening my stones than sharpening. I sharpen 2 blades, then re flatten.

This is an area where I struggle (obsess?). I have the DMT plate for flattening the stones. I quickly scribble across the stone in pencil then flatten. It is super quick. But I might be taking the idea of avoiding out of flat too seriously. I flatten the stone every time I pick it up.

As for number of strokes, the reason I was asking is that I feel like with the progression through five grits, I should be able to move through them quickly. But even with just re sharpening the micro bevel I feel like I need 20-ish strokes before I can (sometimes) feel the burr.

I would love to know I can just touch up a plane blade by say starting at a 3000 or 6000 with a dozen strokes, then a half dozen on the 8000 and 10000 and call it a day.
So, the reason I'm asking about number of strokes, isn't because I want to know the formula for "correct" number of strokes, just rather how many one typically takes to get to the burr and proceed. I'm trying to figure out if I am indeed overdoing it.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm trying to figure out if I am indeed overdoing it.

Better too sharp, than dull.
I prefer to sharpen briefly, often.

More than 3 minutes means I'm not paying attention or the iron is damaged. If it's damage, I check for the cause.

Properly set up and used, shop steel should "wear" but not chip in normal use.

If you want a benchmark, plane endgrain on soft Pine.
Stop and test after each step in the progression, to assess edge quality at that point.

See Bob Rozaieski's excellent article for an image of what you're after in Pine.
https://brfinewoodworking.com/planing-end-grain/

[Robert Hazelwood]

This is an area where I struggle (obsess?). I have the DMT plate for flattening the stones. I quickly scribble across the stone in pencil then flatten. It is super quick. But I might be taking the idea of avoiding out of flat too seriously. I flatten the stone every time I pick it up.

As for number of strokes, the reason I was asking is that I feel like with the progression through five grits, I should be able to move through them quickly. But even with just re sharpening the micro bevel I feel like I need 20-ish strokes before I can (sometimes) feel the burr.

I would love to know I can just touch up a plane blade by say starting at a 3000 or 6000 with a dozen strokes, then a half dozen on the 8000 and 10000 and call it a day.
So, the reason I'm asking about number of strokes, isn't because I want to know the formula for "correct" number of strokes, just rather how many one typically takes to get to the burr and proceed. I'm trying to figure out if I am indeed overdoing it.

With a plane iron you need to sharpen until a burr is raised, and the wear bevel on the back is gone. Unless the iron has hardly been used (and then why are you sharpening it?) this is more work than a fine stone can do efficiently. So most of the time you'll want to start with something like 800 or 1000 grit (for waterstones). It's easier to remove 1000 grit scratches with a finer stone than it is to remove all of the wear with a fine stone. Chisels and knives are a little different.

With that said 20 strokes to raise a burr doesn't sound too outlandish to me. I sharpen freehand and make short fast back and forth strokes without counting, it takes 10-30 seconds of this to raise a burr. Sometimes a bit longer to get rid of the wear bevel. Converting this into the long slow deliberate strokes you make with a guide is difficult but 20 of those long strokes doesn't seem like way too much or anything.

I would also suggest that 5 stones is too many. Try skipping a couple of them, so that your progression is something like 1000-4000-8000. I think something along those lines is a better compromise between a good polish and not making sharpening a huge PITA.

[Robert Engel]

Erich,

When you get to 8000 it helps to increase the angle just a little, and I mean a little. Easily done with a jig, just advance the iron .5mm or so.

But to answer the stroke question, once a burr is formed, you should be raising another burr within 5-6 strokes.

One thing I had to learn is the amount of pressure is also a factor.

When I'm sharpening, once a burr is achieved, I'm checking for a burr after 10 strokes and its always there. I've checked after even 3-4 strokes and there is often a burr, again, pressure is a factor. I can just barely feel a burr at 8000. I stop at 12K.

I would mention that I sharpen free hand, so I can "micro-adjustments" to increase the angle just a tad to speed up the process a bit ;-). Sometimes I just do a few back strokes this way. You could call it a "tertiary bevel". Regardless, that said, over time this tends to create a convex bevel - not good on chisels, so I'm also hollow grinding as needed.

My stone progression depends on how long I've ignored sharpening. But generally its 800/1250 diamond --> 4000, 8000, 12000 water stones. If the tools just needs a touch up I start with 1250. I've found I can go straight from 1250 to 8000.

Hope this makes sense.

[chris carter]

My sharpening method for plane irons and chisels is insanely simple:

- Regular sharpening is a strop that hangs from a hook on my bench for easy access. It’s something like 4oz veg tan on a piece of plywood with green compound. That accomplishes 99% of all my sharpening. Unless a blade actually gets damage (chip or roll, which is rare) I don’t bother with anything other than the strop. I will re-strop if I feel cut quality go down – this is why it resides at my bench because it only interrupts me for 30 seconds. I have learned that if it is EASY and FAST I will do it often and thus avoid the pains of going to something more severe. I will also re-strop every tool I’ve used for more than a handful of cuts at the end of the day so that I can start fresh next time. I will often count the number of strokes, but that’s because I strop so often I can often intuitively know about how many strokes I will need; but I test on my fingernail and keep going if it needs it.

- For minor damage or if I just somehow let the blade go too far, then I will hit it with my DMT extra fine diamond stone (my only “stone”), then strop it.

- If the damage is too much for the diamond stone, then I use a low grit sand paper. This is very rare, which is why I have not bothered to get a coarser grit diamond stone.

I generally do not use a honing guide (I have the Veritas mkII one) because it takes too long to set up. I don’t like sharpening and prefer it to be as fast of a process as physical possible!

[Will Blick]

I am sure most would agree, there is no perfect answer here.
Much depends on what u are starting with...how bad did u let the edge go before going back to the stones.
Others mentioned they hit the stones more frequently, so they spend less time on it... a good strategy.

I am never tried the strop approach, as I always fear it rounding over the edge, which is what I worked sooo hard to achieve....but with proper strop hardness and the right technique, I am sure its possible. I might give it a try.

I never even check for a burr anymore... I simply do my 5 strokes, turn jig upside down and do about 3-4 strokes to wipe off the burrs, and move to the next stone.

I think what stone u start at, depends on how bad you beat up the edge before returning to the stones.
But one rule I do follow is, I spend the most time on the first stone I start with, to be assured I get the edge flat...then I am simply upgrading, or fine tuning the edge as I jump up in grits. I never had much luck making major jumps in stone grits... I try to stay with 2x grit jump max.

Paying attention to how the blade is cutting is the best indicator on when its time to return to the stones.
and this brings up my other big lesson learned...
the blade type matters...not all blades created equally... some hold an edge way longer than others...with the new PMV-11 being far superior to any other metals I have tried. If you want less time on the stones, move to PMV-11.

I agree with others as well, flatenning is where I spend the most time... as I flatten nearly ever use...then, I must flatten my flattening stones on a granite block and sandpaper, as they do NOT stay flat as their wear pattern is not uniform. Quite the battle...but when done right, the joy of that sharp blade is worth it.

[Erich Weidner]

So, I've re-read this thread several times. Seems like lots of folks start at 6000 grit+ when refreshing an edge. My question is how do you know when you need to do that?

Recently my #8 Jointer hit a point where it was clearly not cutting well. Chattering/difficult to push. I ran it through the whole stone progression, now it is great again. But I can't say that I really noticed the degradation in cutting quality in time to refresh the edge from middle grit stones.

What are you experiencing that lights the bulb that you need to refresh the edge? I clearly missed it until it was very bluntly obvious that I needed to resharpen.

[David Bassett]

... My question is how do you know when you need to do that [refresh an edge]? ...

I think the short answer is experience.

In practice it can be a number of things. Recognizing a subtle change in the way the plane moves. Changes in the shaving. Changes in the planed surface. I suppose the sound of taking a shaving. And probably many other things.

[ken hatch]

So, I've re-read this thread several times. Seems like lots of folks start at 6000 grit+ when refreshing an edge. My question is how do you know when you need to do that?

Recently my #8 Jointer hit a point where it was clearly not cutting well. Chattering/difficult to push. I ran it through the whole stone progression, now it is great again. But I can't say that I really noticed the degradation in cutting quality in time to refresh the edge from middle grit stones.

What are you experiencing that lights the bulb that you need to refresh the edge? I clearly missed it until it was very bluntly obvious that I needed to resharpen.

With a plane iron you need to sharpen until a burr is raised, and the wear bevel on the back is gone. Unless the iron has hardly been used (and then why are you sharpening it?) this is more work than a fine stone can do efficiently. So most of the time you'll want to start with something like 800 or 1000 grit (for waterstones). It's easier to remove 1000 grit scratches with a finer stone than it is to remove all of the wear with a fine stone. Chisels and knives are a little different.

With that said 20 strokes to raise a burr doesn't sound too outlandish to me. I sharpen freehand and make short fast back and forth strokes without counting, it takes 10-30 seconds of this to raise a burr. Sometimes a bit longer to get rid of the wear bevel. Converting this into the long slow deliberate strokes you make with a guide is difficult but 20 of those long strokes doesn't seem like way too much or anything.

I would also suggest that 5 stones is too many. Try skipping a couple of them, so that your progression is something like 1000-4000-8000. I think something along those lines is a better compromise between a good polish and not making sharpening a huge PITA.

Erich,

If you ask yourself the question: "Do I need to re-sharpen?" you have the answer. Robert Hazelwood had very good advise. Especially with plane cutters sharpening is a three step process of grinding to clean the bevel and get rid of the "wear", honing to smooth the scratches made when grinding, and polishing to farther refine the scratches and smooth the cutting edge. Three stones and a strop or even two stones and a strop can take care of that process. I use mostly natural stones so grits do not come out to play but for grinding I will normally use an India stone, honing a Washita, and polishing a Surgical Arkansas. If I had to assign grits my guess would be somewhere around a 800 to 1000, 2000 to 4000, and maybe 4000 to 6000.

The stone will tell you when it is time to go to the next stone, listen and don't count strokes.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

So, I've re-read this thread several times. Seems like lots of folks start at 6000 grit+ when refreshing an edge. My question is how do you know when you need to do that?

Recently my #8 Jointer hit a point where it was clearly not cutting well. Chattering/difficult to push. I ran it through the whole stone progression, now it is great again. But I can't say that I really noticed the degradation in cutting quality in time to refresh the edge from middle grit stones.

What are you experiencing that lights the bulb that you need to refresh the edge? I clearly missed it until it was very bluntly obvious that I needed to resharpen.

This depends on many variables.

First would be what use is the edge being used to perform. With a paring chisel when the time to refresh the edge would be evident when it starts pushing the end grain instead of shaving end grain. With some woods you will see lines in place where the edge is compromised:

Pause to Sharpen.jpg

On the right are light lines from wear to the edge of the chisel. The lies are curved due to the chisel being used in a sweeping motion.

On the left is an area pared after the edge was restored with a few strokes on a translucent Arkansas stone and some stropping. The edge was not in need of extensive sharpening, just a light honing.

With plane blades the wear characteristics of the metal come into play. Some blades tend to develop fine chips:

Watch the Shavings.jpg

When shavings start to look like ribbons it is time to sharpen.

Some blades will wear to a smoother profile without chipping. This may give feedback like being a little harder to push, is the plane's sole needing more wax?

For setting up a plane after sharpening a blade my usual procedure is to back the blade off and then adjust it until it just starts to take a shaving. This helps to set the lateral adjustment. It also indicates the fineness of the shaving the blade can make:

If Shavings Could Talk.jpg

Some of my blades can be pretty dull and still take a shaving. As mentioned by David, the shaving may look different. It might have a bubbling - buckling look or a glassy appearance.

The surface being worked may look different.

Making a shaving may even sound different.

In my experience though, a dulled blade can not take a shaving as thin as one well honed fresh from the stones.

My water stone sharpening set up was usually a 1000 or 2000 grit to start if the blade was chipped or very dull. If it was light wear honing might start with a 4000 grit.

With Arkansas stones if it is light chipping it might start on a soft Arkansas. Heavy chipping would bring it down to a softer stone like a Washita. If there wasn't chipping, just light wear it might start at a hard Arkansas or even a translucent Arkansas. Though my translucent stone is rather small for larger blades. The hard Arkansas tends to be the starting place for those.

After working with your blades for a while, you will develop a feel for where they need to start to get them to their optimum edge to get back to work.

jtk