Question Regarding Honing To The Very High Grit Stones

[Mark R Webster]

I have always sharpened using Shapton pros 1000, 5000 and 8000. I was wondering if anyone can tell me where and how they notice a difference when going up to the 12K or 13K Shaptons or Sigmas. Is it longevity of the edge, ability to "catch" the shaving, (hard to describe what I mean here but you can feel when an edge is very sharp, almost like it wants to engage the wood). How do you perceive any difference when going to the high grits. Just trying to educate myself here.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Oh boy, here we go.
I use DMT plates, so my experience may not be the same as yours.
Lately, because my space is limited, I’ve started to simplify my sharpening process. I brought the “extra fine” and “extra extra fine” to my bench, with the honing fluid (H2O with a few drop of laundry detergent in a spray bottle) and sharpen often. I’m working with oak for this project.
Is it as sharp as a leather strop and honing compound? Probably not, but I’m trying to finish a project, not get that particular plane to the “nth” degree of sharpness. It helps as much when I lube the sole of the plane.
Because I’m sharpening often and lubing my process seems to be better. Only MY experience.

[Jim Koepke]

Mark, this question has also caught my interest. My finest stone is an 8000 Norton water stone. According to some grit charts your Shapton 8000 should a bit finer than the Norton.

At one time a finer stone was a temptation in my quest for the ever sharper blade. Most recently to see if there was any reason to go a little further in this quest a few of 0.5µ abrasive sheets were purchased from Lee Valley > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...for-sharpening

So far they are still waiting on the shelf.

My sharpening has gone from mostly water stones to mostly oilstones. Water stones may give a slightly better edge. It is too close to make much diifference in my woodworking.

jtk

[Bob Jones 5443]

Do you suppose it's like sharpening a pencil? Very sharp is good for the task of drawing the fine line. Very, very, very sharp and the pencil point breaks easily. Just musing on whether that analogy might hold some weight.

For the record I go to the Norton 8000 and leave it there. For me, frequently going back to the stones does the trick.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks guys, Aaron, I have not gotten into the diamond stones, but I appreciated your response. Jim and Bob... I am pretty much in the same camp. For me, the 8000 gives an edge that seems to do the job and I have a hard time imagining how one would perceive a functional difference by going to the higher grits. I am pretty open to new ideas especially if they seem logical and are discernible . I guess I am hoping those who swear by the higher grits can give me some way to appreciate and share in their excitement for an improved edge. I would like to think there is a way to detect a difference. If it is under a microscope analyzing scratch patterns, I get that in theory.. it is a "sharper" edge, but if there is no way to measure the functional value then I guess I will just keep doing what I am doing. I am not unhappy with my edges but you know how it goes, we are always checking out the newest thing... and hey... you don't know what you don't know right? You high grit users please don't take this as a challenge to your methods... I truly want to learn.

[bill epstein]

Seems to me there are many for whom sharpening is the hobby.

[Mark R Webster]

I know what you mean I still like to hear peoples thoughts

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Always sharpened with Norton waterstones: 220, 1000, 4000, 8000. Hated the mess and the time spent flattening them. When the 220 wore down I bought a DMT extra extra course to replace it. When/if my other grits wear down I’ll replace them with the equivalent diamond stone. I do final passes on a horse butt leather strop with green compound. I don’t need anything sharper. If an edge is really trashed, I do hollow grind it on a grinder.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks for the response Stephen!

[Andrew Seemann]

I hone with a 4000 waterstone (King brand maybe?) and then hit the edge on the stroping wheel on the Tormek with that abrasive "toothpaste" they make for it. I haven't found a reason to go finer.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I suspect one could see a difference on the iron between 8000 and 16000 grit with just a 10X thread counter, not even a microscope, but my unsupported guess is that the fine sliver edge from the 16000 would bend over after a few shavings.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Andrew and Bob for responses!

[Derek Cohen]

I have always sharpened using Shapton pros 1000, 5000 and 8000. I was wondering if anyone can tell me where and how they notice a difference when going up to the 12K or 13K Shaptons or Sigmas. Is it longevity of the edge, ability to "catch" the shaving, (hard to describe what I mean here but you can feel when an edge is very sharp, almost like it wants to engage the wood). How do you perceive any difference when going to the high grits. Just trying to educate myself here.

Mark, the short answer is that a higher grit does help the edge last longer. The last lost of real world testing was done by David Weaver several months ago. Brent Beach also did a lot of this type of testing, as did I. David was also clear that PM-V11 steel takes and holds the better edge when looking at O1 and A2 steels.

I would disagree with the notion that a finer edge is weaker. Quite the opposite - there are fewer serrations to lead to chipping.

Now there are some other factors to consider.

It also depends on the wood you work. Hard and abrasive woods will wear edges faster. Interlocked wood is the most vulnerable to tearout. Fine finish shavings, which are rather dependent on a well-sharpened edge, will be difficult if the edge goes quicker than expected. There is an infamous video by Paul Sellers, where he sharpens to 250 grit and then planes pine. It will work, but even Paul admitted that it was more effort.

I end with a Sigma 13000. I used to use a Shapton Pro 12000 (which, incidentally, is the same stone as their 15000), having moved to this after a 8000 (this was about 10 years ago). There is a distinct difference and improvement with the higher grit.

I am still inclined to use green compound (on hardwood), not so much for a higher grit still, but to ensure that any wire has been removed (I only take a couple of strokes).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

I normally stop at 8k. However I bought a 16k ceramic stone just to see.

I can’t tell any difference in the planing I’ve done between 16k and 8k plus some stropping.

[Jim Matthews]

Unmentioned above is the surface finish left by progressively finer grits. The shimmering quality of premium Alaskan cedar off a properly fettled Japanese plane is remarkable.

* There is a downside *

In practice, getting a blade to this degree of polish is unforgiving, messy and expensive.

My finest waterstone is nominally 12000 grit.

To prepare an iron for this takes nearly $300 in materials, 20 minutes per blade and three years of practice.

******

Recent exposure to the modern sintered stainless steel from Carpenter (XHP) has shown a very close appearance on even highly figured lumber, using commonly available Arkansas oilstones.

From dull to terrible sharp in about 3 minutes.

Cost of stones, under $30.

Nearly ten times faster for one tenth the cost.

That's progress.