[OP]
Contributor
Anyone who has a Domino has dry fit their joints and then taken them apart with nothing but their hands before putting them together with glue. It's patently obvious that a M&T joint without glue is not reliable - it's not going to stay together.
Mike
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Moderator
I am with Mike. This is the first time I am seeing that glue on a floating tenon is unnecessary. I understood the name to come from the fact that it’s not integral to either piece, not that it’s intended not to be glued.
Moderator
Um...I can't often get dry fit Domino joints apart merely with my hands, but a few blows with a soft mallet does the job.Originally Posted by Mike Henderson
I had to do that this week with my window project prior to glue-up. Those suckers were tight. Which is how I wanted them. But I absolutely agree that glue is essential for the final assembly for maximum benefit.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Member
Nobody in their right mind would think that an unglued Domino is a strong joint, used as a joint. (There could be pathological exceptions.)
But your claim that a properly pinned M&T joint is not reliable is just plain weird, and ignores the history of the craft. I have stuff that I built decades ago using carefully thought out joinery, that never saw the plague of glue, that is still seeing rough use today, and has held up very well, under arguably extreme conditions.
Let’s not even get into the more interesting asian joinery methods, where you might not even think about this stuff.
Contributor
"the plague of glue"?
You lost me there. Sure, pinned tenons, properly designed, are effective. True enough, timber-framed structures are built with unglued mortise and tenon joints- at least in this country though the main structure is augmented with angle braces, without which the whole affair would be suspect. If you repair timber frames for a living as my son does you will find that a majority of the pinned angle brace tenons are broken from tension forces, showing that the braces are primarily effective in compression. This doesn't prove that pinned joints are ineffective, but it does show that the joints typically don't have enough cross section to be pinned effectively. The same is true of many furniture joints, and that is where glue comes in. Plus, there are many situations where pins would be visually inappropriate, or high stress joints as in chairs where glue would add strength to a pinned joint. If I am using a m&t joint that requires glue to be effective I thoroughly coat both surfaces to ensure maximum strength.
Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 06-21-2020 at 9:22 AM.
Moderator
Comon' folks..."different strokes" applies here. There absolutely is great joinery that doesn't leverage any glue. But glue is a common and valid method for securing a wide variety of joinery methods, too, and in those cases when used properly, it adds to the strength to some extent; sometimes just a little and sometimes quite a bit.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
What an interesting bit of conversation. Certainly a different approach to M&T, floating or not, than I am used to. I take advantage of the long grain mating surfaces that M&T provide to secure a joint and resist movement. Until now that is all I had considered it for except when making things purposely loose like the M&T at the rear of a drawer frame (dust frame) in a carcass for example.
I have a Domino. It is an additional way to mortise but, certainly hasn't replaced more typical methods used in my shop. When using it for alignment I glue up similar to the way Dave S mentions since the Dominos are acting like a spline or biscuit for alignment, not for strength in the long grain to long grain glue joint. All in all a refreshing look at a traditional joint and the thread certainly took me through a bit of mental exercise. I'll continue to glue my M&T joints that are used for strength though ;-)
Like other joinery methods, sometimes the M&T becomes a design element. In this case the through tenon, wedged tenon or pinned tenon is an aesthetic element as well as a construction element. I agree that pinned tenons reduce the strength BUT, also agree that we need to consider "how strong does it need to be?" when talking about stronger or weaker joinery. We certainly don't want things falling apart but, delicate pieces are part of our craft.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
Friend of the Creek
I would venture to say that some of this disagreement about "tightness: of domino joints (or loose tenon joinery) is about relative humidity in the region you live. I live in NC and humidity here fluctuates greatly from east to wet within the one state. My shop is heat and humidity controlled, yet I always have to shave/sand/plane dominoes to get them in for a dry fit. I have stuck them in the microwave a minute or so to dry them out and stored them in plastic sealed bags and still occasionally have to sand/sand/plane them to get a dry fit. Quite often I have to use a rubber mallet to release a dry fitted domino.
So, maybe, glue is the equalizer across humidity zones to ensure a permanent hold?
Jim
Moderator
I have never read any suggestion not to glue a floating tenon except for cross grain joint that required expansion room. Even then, the user always has glued (or drawbored) at least one side of each tenon and both in the center.
Festoon themselves have made knock down tenons for applications to be taken apart.
Even in Windsor chairs they don’t glue the tenons into the mortise but at least wedge them, and glue the wedge. Having made a couple of these, i have experienced that even here the joint can loosen through the seasons. The tapered socket is designed to address this and to re-seat the joint as the user sits.
The same would happen to a traditional mortise and tenon. No matter how accurately you saw or fit the joint, there is a significant possibility it will loosen over changing seasons without additional mechanical reinforcement or glue.
Last edited by Prashun Patel; 06-21-2020 at 5:32 PM.
Contributor
Member
I use ~3 mm diameter bamboo skewers from the grocery store. I can cut a skewer into three 100mm long glue applicators at the baby bandsaw, I never use the skewer point, it’s useless but the squares ends are great. I dribble the glue into all of the mortises, then each one I spin the skewer at the bottom to pick up the glue and keep spinning while moving it in the air because that doesn’t allow a drop to fall off, then I can wipe it along mortise sides and the half circle ends. I do all mortises, then I use the skewer to wipe into then remove almost all glue from the domino itself, there are pressed in areas in the domino face I am trying to fill, but any extra glue on the domino just becomes squeeze out.
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