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Thread: Going Neander' Well, probably mostly... or at least a lot more...

  1. #1
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    Going Neander' Well, probably mostly... or at least a lot more...

    So, as I mentioned in a few other threads. I really want to get rid of as many floor space hogs as I can. 2-4 "panel" saws hanging on the wall, or in a wall mounted tool cabinet take up zero floor space. I've been forcing myself to do everything by hand on the three projects I've recently been at. (I'm about to start #3).

    Sliding Compound Miter Saw
    I built a pretty nice SCMS workstation with fold up wings and a kreg scale and storage underneath and I'm very happy with it. But it takes up too much floor space. Now that I've gotten my hand saw crosscutting dialing in on 80-90% perfect, the shooting board cleans it up quickly to 100%. I really think that the SCMS's days are numbered. But, I want to get several more projects under my belt before I ditch it as it was Festool expensive, and I spent a good weekend of my life making the cabinet/workstation it lives on.

    Neander'ing it - But honestly, I'm liking so much that I don't have to fiddle with trying to get my cut perfectly lined up by trying to eyeball my cut line vs. the circular blade (even with the laser dialed in, the laser line is too fat for "perfect" now that I'm used to knifed in lines...). I'd often have to make cuts to creep up on perfect. And plug in the shop vac and hook it up to the SCMS, and don eye/ear protection. Just a pain really.
    At the end of the day, since I'm not doing cut after cut with the same settings, I don't feel like I'm really saving any time vs. just cross cutting by hand.

    Table Saw
    Next up is the Tablesaw, again nice piece of quality kit as like my fingers (and this one is designed not to take them, even if I accidentally offer them up). But I got it at the 55" table size (it has the extension table). I sized it for a big panel cutting sled I made (and have already given away after I got my track saw, as it took up too much space and was heavy). Now, the one thing I'm pretty sure I don't want to do by hand all the time is ripping. Again, I'm forcing myself to do it all that way right now to both learn sawing technique and to see if I really could live without the TS. It helps that I have so much stuff piled on it due to lack of storage space that wheeling it out, unloading it, hooking up the dust collector, donning eye/ear protection, opening garage door so I have enough in-feed clearance (Which in Texas means now the garage is stupid hot again in less than 5 minutes) helps me avoid using it..

    Neander'ing it -Well, boy do I work up a sweat ripping. I'm still not good at it, but the 7 point rip saw once it gets close to vertical powers through the material like I certainly didn't expect. I still can't stay on the line in this grip, but it shows promise as being pretty fast. The pair of sawbenches I build as hand tool project #1 are part of the success story. If my table saw could always be setup and in position (I have to wheel it out to where the car normally lives to get any out-feed clearance), it would doubtless always be faster and less labor.

    Alternatively... as many folks have pointed out few woodworkers today, even hand tool nut jobs rip everything by hand. My current TS is taking up just way too much floor space, and it blocks access to a big section of wall which has tools and shelves I need to be able to get to unless I drag it out to the operation zone. I've not owned a bandsaw for years since my last one broke. I hear some folks value it above the tablesaw if you had to pick one. That might be an option for quickly ripping long boards. Or I might sell the big Saw Stop and go for a smaller footprint model... I just don't know.

    Also, I also have a track saw, (and jig saw) and due to a big project I did off-site last year (couldn't bring 20' long boards home to rip), I have some long sections of track. Still takes a bunch of time to pull out the tools and set it up for a long cut, but the track can hang on the wall and take up no floor space, and the saw itself is of course just as big as the storage case, which isn't using much floor space either).

    Also, also, if I go full neader' on ripping, if I build a split top sawbench, that I think would speed up the rip until I hit the inside of the rip notch, move board, repeat sequence of ripping by hand today. Or maybe ripping at the bench? (Not had much luck with that so far... but only tried it once)

    Router Table
    Built my own table, but with a nice phenolic top with cool fence and tracks, and height adjustment from the top from (I forget the company). Last use was for picture frames. I don't currently have any hand planes for profiling beyond a beading blade for my plow. Don't know where I'm going with this. Shop vac isn't powerful enough for good dust collection, so if I keep it I guess I'm stuck with the dust collector. I've started reading about profiling planes. But I don't own any yet.

    Lathe
    I want one... but need to free up space for a floor stand, or figure out where to store it when not in use. Can't use a dust collector with it so there is hope I could get one and still loose the DC.

    Dust Collector
    If I get rid of the TS and Router Table and I don't need it for bandsawing (if I ever get on), that is bonus floor space I can free up!


    Whew, I meant this to be a quick post as I usually do my creak'in late at night. I'm cutting into my shop time on my only day off this week. I'm headed out to the garage to do battle with something!
    Last edited by Erich Weidner; 06-15-2020 at 3:02 AM. Reason: typos, incomplete sentance.

  2. #2
    I mentioned this on the other thread, but to give all an opportunity to skewer it, if I had to go near full neander with a few stationary power tools, I would do a 14" band saw and a lunchbox thickness planer. Those take out the most time and muscle consuming and miserable aspects of hand tool work, long rips and thickness planing. Edge jointing and face jointing (enough to run through the planer) are easily done enough with hand planes.

    If space allowed, I would hang on to some kind of table saw; those are just so darned handy
    Last edited by Andrew Seemann; 06-14-2020 at 5:38 PM.

  3. #3
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    Neander'ing it -Well, boy do I work up a sweat ripping. I'm still not good at it, but the 7 point rip saw once it gets close to vertical powers through the material like I certainly didn't expect. I still can't stay on the line in this grip, but it shows promise as being pretty fast.
    One way to work on this is when it is noticed that the saw is wandering from the line, move the saw down so it is sawing at a low angle aligned vertically with the line. A few strokes should get you back on track and the kerf helps to guide the saw. If the saw is still wandering it may have more set on one side.

    There are things a bandsaw can do that a table saw cannot. There are also things a table saw can do that cannot be done with a bandsaw. For me a bandsaw does the power saw operations needed for my projects.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #4
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    A 7 ppi rip saw is a fairly fine cutter IMO Erich. I typically use a 4-1/2, 5 or 5-1/2 ppi saw for long rips in rougher timber that is being cut down. If you are not dealing (or not very often at all anyway) with sheet goods for case work, I would definitely look at replacing the TS with a BS. IMO, a TS shines when dealing with cutting up ply for cabinets. Yes, it does rip the devil out of timber that is thinner than the blade will raise, but a BS will do that every bit as good and better when the material is thick. Losing the TS, Especially with having a track saw as a backup, should not hurt as much. I dealt my router table away as it did take up too much room and have slowly been acquiring moulding planes. I believe that my BS would be the last power tool to go.
    David

  5. #5
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    Congratulations on your successful approach.
    It's nice to have shop time, without dust collection.

    Regarding ripping, and physical limitations:
    Thickness of the stock matters, as does "toughness" of the board in question.

    I will rip stock less than 2" thick, no more than 40" in lchore. I use a Japanese Ryoba, with the board mounted vertically in a vise. I can plane all day.

    Sawing takes a faster toll. Time in the shop should be engaging, rather than a chore.

    Thicker stock or longer boards go to the bandsaw.

    See : Jim Tolpin's The new traditional woodworker.

  6. #6
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    I sold my tablesaw, miter saw, and jointer. Got a new 17" Grizzly bandsaw. Put together my drill press after 15 years sitting in its carton. Kept my Dewalt 735 planer. Bought a MFT for my tracksaw. After all this, I am finding that I rather sorely miss the tablesaw when it comes to pieces of less than 7" in width. I'm finding it difficult to precisely do something like rip 1/8" from the length of a 23" piece. The bandsaw leaves a pretty ragged edge (may be the Timberwolf blade) that is prett easy to clean up with a jointer plane. However, ensuring that 2 or more such pieces that are supposed to be identical and with parallel edges is not so easy whereas it is a dead cinch on the TS.

  7. #7
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    I think I can, I think I can...

    So today while starting on hand tool project #3 (tool chest- maybe then I can get all the stuff off the the TS), I noted that there was some wobble on the board I was cross cutting atop the two sawbenches (project #1).
    Turns out the back legs on one of the sawbenches was a solid 1/8" shorter than the front legs.

    I kept looking at the SCMS, then the TS... but visualized the 1/8" piece just flying away and breaking, if I could get that thin of a cut to work with deflection issues to be square.

    Then I briefly fantasized about by old bandsaw; that wouldn't fling the offcut away. But I don't have a bandsaw right now.

    So after much hemming and hawing, I pulled out the shooting board, shot the end of some scrap pine (it was perfect, since it was originally a leg for the project #1 sawbenches that I screwed up), then took a deep breath and marked out a 1st class saw cut and went slowly at it with the carcass saw. Almost perfect! I would never have even thought about attempting this with hand tools if it weren't for my 3 hand tool project pledge. I'm still having to retrain my mind that I can make things square by hand sawing alone... just takes practice.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Eisenhauer View Post
    A 7 ppi rip saw is a fairly fine cutter IMO Erich. I typically use a 4-1/2, 5 or 5-1/2 ppi saw for long rips in rougher timber that is being cut down.
    Hmm... the 7 point saw cuts pretty quick. Now I'm curious what quicker would look like, and I might get one. But what is the optimal application of a 7 point rip saw then?

    My (sash tenon) only other rip saw is 12 ppi. That definitely doesn't cut fast.

  9. #9
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    My 6 ppi rip saw can rip a 10 foot piece of 4/4 ash in about 15 minutes. > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?167535

    Using a 4-1/2 ppi saw wasn't really much quicker. It was a bit more work to use.

    Go to yard sales and such. You will find a few old saws to experiment.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #10
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    Well if you sell that tablesaw you'll have plenty of funds for a nice 16"+ bandsaw. I have a 16" jet and that's what I use for ripping.

    The other technique for ripping with a handsaw is sitting down on the benches CS wrote about like the Roman style bench.

    I'm with you on the router. I want to switch over to all moulding planes eventually. I bought Bickford's book but that's and expensive and intimidating thing to jump into.

    I started out wanting to be 100% neander and I've setting on a J/P combo (on order), bandsaw, SCMS, and eventually a lathe. I could get rid of the SCMS but I have the space. I'm in an enclosed shop so Dust Collector is a must. I don't mind edge jointing by hand but face jointing gets old fast, especially for interior pieces that nobody will ever see and I just need them to be square.

  11. #11
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    Awesome dude! I'm only on my first hand tool only project and I'm learning just how often I used power tools.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Crawford View Post
    I started out wanting to be 100% neander and I've setting on a J/P combo (on order), bandsaw, SCMS, and eventually a lathe. I could get rid of the SCMS but I have the space. I'm in an enclosed shop so Dust Collector is a must. I don't mind edge jointing by hand but face jointing gets old fast, especially for interior pieces that nobody will ever see and I just need them to be square.
    That is the rub, the problem with getting rid of power tools, is sometimes the customer (e.g. your spouse), wants something done on time and on budget

  13. #13
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    I don't have any timed cutting data on ripping with a finer cutting saw vs a rougher cutting saw, but the older carpenters that I learned from in the late 60's -early 70's all used 5 or 5.5 ppi saws and claimed that finer cutters were slower (more work cutting) in the same fashion that an 8 point crosscutter cuts faster than a 12 point crosscutter. I have always used a 5-5.5 point rip saw since then. I have no doubt that a 6 or 7 pointer works just fine, just saying that a rougher cutting saw should be a little quicker (less strokes per cut length required). I have had to use 8 and 10 point crosscut saws to rip something and I definitely prefer a true rip filed saw for that work. I'm thinking that the finer cutting rip saws may have been more for stuff that required a cleaner cut where hand planning the ripped edge was not in the plan. Either way, a well set and sharp 6 or 7 pointer should be better than a poorly set up and/or dull 5 pointer.
    David

  14. #14
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    the older carpenters that I learned from in the late 60's -early 70's all used 5 or 5.5 ppi saws and claimed that finer cutters were slower
    They were likely in much better shape, not to mention the training, than an old fart like me.

    That is the reason for my suggestion to purchase a bunch of saws cheaply to experiment with different tooth counts.

    Then one can find a particular tooth count that works for them or they may find they like different tooth counts for different types of wood.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    They were likely in much better shape, not to mention the training, than an old fart like me.

    That is the reason for my suggestion to purchase a bunch of saws cheaply to experiment with different tooth counts.

    Then one can find a particular tooth count that works for them or they may find they like different tooth counts for different types of wood.

    jtk


    I haven't had much luck finding tool shows locally. And I don't have time to seek out garage or estate sales currently. I read about the midwest tool shows with envy. Here in central Texas I'm not aware of any.

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