Help me decide on a table saw

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have a friend who loves old iron. I suggest, however, that whatever you purchase should have a few specific features, mostly related to safety.

1. Riving knife or splitter that is easy to put on and remove (in case you want to use a dado blade) and you do want one for normal cuts.
2. Anti-kickback pawls.
3. blade guard
4. Better dust collection is good.
5. Decent fence

Some of the older saws might be missing the first two, pretty much all newer saws will have that. I chose the SawStop because I wanted the extra safety around my fingers. The owner of a local woodworking store told me that the instructions for assembling the SawStop were the best of any saw he had to assemble, and he had assembled the ones that they carried, so for certain Jet and Powermatic, not sure which others.

That said, another crucial thing is support and parts. After some years my SawStop failed. I made a phone call and almost immediately was speaking with someone who talked me through the most likely problem (capacitor failure) and which parts made sense to ship based on parts cost compared to shipping costs, so, I ordered two parts even though we figured it was only one that failed. Two days later I was up and running again, but, if that had not fixed it, I already had a good idea of what would be tried next.

I vaguely remember people complaining about parts and Delta saws. I would ask people about their after purchase support when something failed on a Powermatic, Jet, or Grizzly.

I did not even mention some of the sliders or European machines that have a great reputation because (1) I know almost nothing about them and (2) I did not think that they were on your list of things to consider.

Finally, I saw that a track saw was mentioned. I have a Dewalt that I got on a super sale on Amazon for a price that I could not refuse. To be clear, you can build your own track, but, some people use the festool system rather than a table saw. Lots of advantages to that. Also some disadvantages. I like to use my Dewalt to break down large sheet goods because it is easier than trying to manhandle it through the table saw AND because I do not have room around the saw to do it. In front of my saw I have a water heater that limits the length of what I can feed. I don't remember the length, but probably about 6' or so. I also use the track saw when I have rough lumber and I want to cut a long straight line along one edge. This gives me a reference surface without using a jig on the table saw.

Side note: I really liked my old ridgid saw, but it was missing some safety features or they were very tricky to deal with. I would not expect that on a newer saw.

[Frank Pratt]

I may just say screw it and get a Dewalt job site saw, and a track saw instead.

Really bad idea, unless you have a need to move the saw around from site to site. For that cost you could get a really decent used contractor saw that is 10X the machine.

[glenn bradley]

I would avoid a contractor format saw and all the problems that come with that design. I'm sure there's one or two out there that can tilt the blade without skewing out of alignment but, they are like unicorns. When I moved from a contractor (An old Craftsman that I had thrown a couple of hundred dollars of aftermarket goodies at to make very, very functional) to a hybrid it was a tremendous step despite similar power capabilities. The stability and reliability of getting what you expect when you set the saw for a cut is what a saw should deliver every time without a lot of extra steps. We can only do what we can do so I would offer this; if you are buying a contractor, consider it a next-step-saw and go in an inexpensively as you can.

[Frank Pratt]

I would avoid a contractor format saw and all the problems that come with that design. I'm sure there's one or two out there that can tilt the blade without skewing out of alignment but, they are like unicorns.

That's a good point. My last saw was a unicorn, but come to think of it, the one before (Rockwell Beaver 9") was terrible when the blade was tilted. Actually, it was just plain terrible in every way.

I still thing that if you shop carefully, you'd end up with one that's miles better than a job site saw.

[Jim Dwight]

I am not familar with the SawStop contractor saw but there are lots of reviews on youtube. Typically the contractor saw has the blade lowering and tilting mechanism attached to the saw top, not the cabinet. The PCS has the height and tilting mechanism attached to the cabinet. That is preferable so you can more easily true it up if necessary. Dust collection is nearly always better on the closed cabinet saw. But many people get clever with contractor saws and get decent dust collection. The contractor saw also takes up more space due to the motor hanging off the back. I think the SS contractor saw would be as safe as the PCS.

I do not believe a track saw is a replacement for a table saw but I really like having both. Mine is a DeWalt. It or the Makita will give you results comparable to a Festool from the reviews I've seen for a much lower price. It is possible to do most cuts on the track saw but it is challenging to cut smaller pieces of wood with the track saw. In my shop, the track saw cuts large pieces, solid or sheet, and the table saw cuts smaller things and joints. I think a track saw is also safer than a table saw. On the low end, even the Wen seems like it would be a useful addition. Izzy Swan reviewed it on youtube and said it's a keeper for him.

I used less expensive table saws and tools in general for most of my time making sawdust. I made a lot of furniture for myself and my kids with them. I like having nicer tools but they are not absolutely necessary.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I do not believe a track saw is a replacement for a table saw but I really like having both. Mine is a DeWalt. It or the Makita will give you results comparable to a Festool from the reviews I've seen for a much lower price. It is possible to do most cuts on the track saw but it is challenging to cut smaller pieces of wood with the track saw. In my shop, the track saw cuts large pieces, solid or sheet, and the table saw cuts smaller things and joints. I think a track saw is also safer than a table saw. On the low end, even the Wen seems like it would be a useful addition. Izzy Swan reviewed it on youtube and said it's a keeper for him.

Although I agree with you, the Festool thing has a special table with things that apparently help you do things like make a parallel cut (and similar). Not having used it, I cannot say with any certainty.

[John Terefenko]

I've had a Bosch Jobsite saw. It was underpowered for 8/4, even with a thin kerf blade. The universal motor is not nearly as strong as an actual 1.75 on a "contractor's" type saw with the belt hanging out the back. I'd suggest a used CL saw before a jobsite saw.
happens.
However, as Jim Dwight posted, it's hard to argue a SS vs. something else when a true accident I actually was REALLY against SawStops/Gass's politics myself and refused to get one for years. However, no matter how safe I believe I've been and despite whatever my politics have been, I've STILL had car accidents and table saw accidents.

My friend lost the first digit of his left index finger last year, when he turned to look at what his dog was barking at, after he had turned off his table saw... He didn't get the finger back at it cost north of $3k at the hospital.

Did you ever look at the turning forums and all the accidents with things flying off the lathe and all the broken noses and blackeyes and bruises. Did you ever go to the router forums and read about all the kickbacks and fingers getting mangled. It is not only tablesaws that cause injuries and in fact it is not the saw at all but the person standing behind that tool. Yes you save yourself a trip for injury but beware other things lurk in the shop. I just hate reading this same old tired thing about how much it saved in emergency room visits. Use better safety precautions. I have used a Delta contractors saw for over 35 years and have gotten a better fence and better miter gauges and use sleds and hold downs and push sticks all the time. Am I lucky or just safety conscious. Probably both. So I will leave it at that.

[Rod Wolfy]

John, I totally agree. I have a message posted on my "chop saw", ”Is it safer on the bandsaw?".

Many people actually use a miter saw with a "chopping" motion and then when the blade goes back up, a couple teeth fling the piece at them; not knowing that they are supposed to leave it down until the blade stops.

But, a sharp mind is the safest tool. Thinking through your work and how it might bite you, if you're not careful.

But, any extra safety equipment helps. Push sticks, feather boards, and table saw blades that stop on a dime.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I see mostly Saw Stop recommendations in this thread.

I've never used one but I did (and still do) look at the models my local Woodcraft store stocks before I purchased my used Delta Unisaw. I'm very happy with my Unisw purchase and I like it better than the Saw Stops.

I'd like to note that Saw Stop doesn't prevent all injury nor do they claim specifically that it will. There are serious injuries that have happened with the Saw Stop. It then becomes debatable if the technology did reduce what could have been. I would like to think it does but there is nothing definitive that you won't have a serious injury or even amputation with a Saw Stop. I would argue that a table saw with a quality blade guard and riving knife is capable of providing an improved level of safety. Additionally, you won't have to pay for accidental blade trips.

I'm not against Saw Stop and I like the technology. The cost does seem very high. But that is typical of a patented technology that does provide a benefit.

I think the benefit here is that it may be used in place of a blade guard (even though they provide a blade guard and riving knife for safety). Saw Stop doesn't and won't recommend you not use the other safety features. With these features in place there is a finite probability the additional Saw Stop feature will reduce some level of injury. With the standard safety features in place this becomes a small probability of risk reduction and in typical hazard mitigation strategies falls into a feasibility question.

So if this is feasible in your budget and you like the Saw Stop (it is a good saw) then go for it. But I don't see it as a safety mitigation that you can't live without. The argument seems to go that since there is some risk reduction involved that everyone should spend the extra money for it. I really doubt most of us based our auto buying decision around this logic and you are at much higher risk in your vehicle.

If you fall into the category that I do and want to use that additional money to spend on other things then you have a number of good options.
The OP is considering additional options which I find an interesting list of options as well.

[Mike Henderson]

I see mostly Saw Stop recommendations in this thread.

I've never used one but I did (and still do) look at the models my local Woodcraft store stocks before I purchased my used Delta Unisaw. I'm very happy with my Unisw purchase and I like it better than the Saw Stops.

I'd like to note that Saw Stop doesn't prevent all injury nor do they claim specifically that it will. There are serious injuries that have happened with the Saw Stop. It then becomes debatable if the technology did reduce what could have been. I would like to think it does but there is nothing definitive that you won't have a serious injury or even amputation with a Saw Stop. I would argue that a table saw with a quality blade guard and riving knife is capable of providing an improved level of safety. Additionally, you won't have to pay for accidental blade trips.

I'm not against Saw Stop and I like the technology. The cost does seem very high. But that is typical of a patented technology that does provide a benefit.

I think the benefit here is that it may be used in place of a blade guard (even though they provide a blade guard and riving knife for safety). Saw Stop doesn't and won't recommend you not use the other safety features. With these features in place there is a finite probability the additional Saw Stop feature will reduce some level of injury. With the standard safety features in place this becomes a small probability of risk reduction and in typical hazard mitigation strategies falls into a feasibility question.

So if this is feasible in your budget and you like the Saw Stop (it is a good saw) then go for it. But I don't see it as a safety mitigation that you can't live without. The argument seems to go that since there is some risk reduction involved that everyone should spend the extra money for it. I really doubt most of us based our auto buying decision around this logic and you are at much higher risk in your vehicle.

If you fall into the category that I do and want to use that additional money to spend on other things then you have a number of good options.
The OP is considering additional options which I find an interesting list of options as well.

I, for one, can say that the SawStop saved my finger. I wound up with a small cut on my thumb. Without the SawStop I'd be missing my thumb.

No technology can guarantee that you won't get injured but there are lots of stories like mine where the SawStop saved someone's fingers or hand. Let's say that in 95% of the cases it will save your fingers or hand. I'd take that level of protection. I'd work safe but I'd know that there's some technology that has my back in case I make a mistake.

I look at the extra cost of a SawStop as an insurance payment. The good thing is that it's a one time payment and the protection is there for the rest of my life.

Mike

[Jim Dwight]

I believe the reason I got a broken bone and six stitches with a SawStop was a combination of using a 3/4 dado blade (harder to stop) and a kick back throwing my hand into the blade quickly. The hot dog tests are done at a relatively low speed and it just gets scratched. The brake stops the blade (or blades) quickly but if your hand is moving quickly and forcefully into the blade you can still get what I would call a serious injury. SawStop has the data but I have not seen where they have shared it. All I've seen is the claim of no serious injuries - which I do not believe. But I will say again that my surgeon and I both believe I only have the end of my left middle finger because the SS brake stopped the blades in time. The technology is a bit oversold in my opinion but it works.

With respect to track saw accessories there are definitely more for Festools. But I have parallel guides for my DeWalt but I had to make them (I don't like them much and use home made track positioning guides instead). Many Festool accessories will work on other saws with similar style rails like Makita or even Wen (I think). DeWalt is unique in using a double sided rail so Festool stuff doesn't work for DeWalt. A key benefit of the Festool MFT (multi function table) is accurate crosscuts. I do that with rail dogs. There is a guy on you tube with a Festool saw that stopped using the MFT cross cut setup and uses rail dogs instead (I think he goes by woodgrafter or something like that). I am using a Paulk style outfeed table/workbench with 20mm holes made with a Woodrave router base. There are other ways to accurately bore the holes. I was surprised by the accuracy of my holes since the router base indexes off pegboard. Pegboard is visibly off a little but my crosscuts are as accurate as any square I have to measure them with - good enough for me. I'm sure the MFT is nice but it, like everything Festool (and I have a domino and a few other things Festool) it is also expensive. My point is just that there are other ways to get to at least similar accuracy that are cheaper. I also think you could use a MFT with a Makita track saw.

[John Terefenko]

I, for one, can say that the SawStop saved my finger. I wound up with a small cut on my thumb. Without the SawStop I'd be missing my thumb.

No technology can guarantee that you won't get injured but there are lots of stories like mine where the SawStop saved someone's fingers or hand. Let's say that in 95% of the cases it will save your fingers or hand. I'd take that level of protection. I'd work safe but I'd know that there's some technology that has my back in case I make a mistake.

I look at the extra cost of a SawStop as an insurance payment. The good thing is that it's a one time payment and the protection is there for the rest of my life.

Mike

Mike you are lucky you had the safety system on. How many times people shut it off and still use the saw. How did you cut the thumb?? I bet it was a dumb thing on your part and had nothing to do with the saw. Most accidents are sooooooooooooooo preventable and many times people operating tools should not even be in a shop. A shop full of tools has danger lurking around every corner. Just walking into a shop which for most times is a crowded jammed packed shop because we all lack the room we all want. Trip and fall and an accident happened. Bend over and hit head on corner of work bench and an accident happened. Just saying SawStop can not prevent all accidents. If Sawstop is extra cost of an insurance plan what have you done with the rest of the shop to prevent injuries. ??? I just see these arguments over and over. Tell the whole story not just the tablesaw story. tell us have you been injured with any other tool in the shop since you have been working in one. It is not a one time payment. Every time you trip that brake it cost you a blade plus the shoe. So add that to the payment.

[Andy D Jones]

If the SS never discharged for nuisance contact with metal or wet wood, destroying a (replaceable at cost+profit) part of itself and the saw blade in the process, then it could be called a one-time insurance payment.

I haven't counted, but I'd say the number of nuisance discharges outnumber the limb-saving ones ~10:1. So add the cost of 10 cartridges and 10 saw blades to that "insurance" cost.

Add to that, the SS's incompatibility with the best dado sets (because SS didn't bother to beef up the arbor to handle the momentum). Did somebody say SS was a well-built machine?

If you want that kind of insurance, you're more than welcome to it.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Mike you are lucky you had the safety system on. How many times people shut it off and still use the saw. How did you cut the thumb?? I bet it was a dumb thing on your part and had nothing to do with the saw. Most accidents are sooooooooooooooo preventable and many times people operating tools should not even be in a shop. A shop full of tools has danger lurking around every corner. Just walking into a shop which for most times is a crowded jammed packed shop because we all lack the room we all want. Trip and fall and an accident happened. Bend over and hit head on corner of work bench and an accident happened. Just saying SawStop can not prevent all accidents. If Sawstop is extra cost of an insurance plan what have you done with the rest of the shop to prevent injuries. ??? I just see these arguments over and over. Tell the whole story not just the tablesaw story. tell us have you been injured with any other tool in the shop since you have been working in one. It is not a one time payment. Every time you trip that brake it cost you a blade plus the shoe. So add that to the payment.

I like safety features even if almost every accident is preventable. I am flawed, the wood is flawed, etc. I know I do not need a riven knife, splitter, blade guard, or even a fence; I see people on TV cutting wood without any of that, they just feed that board through by hand and eye. That is a level of talent I do not have. I used to own a saw lacking many safety features. I chose a saw with safety features with which I am more comfortable and I am still very cautious and assume that every single one of them will fail. While doing some explosives research, I worked with a guy who followed every single rule and procedure and he still almost died. we now have new rules, devices, and procedures. After many months, he is back to work.

[Mike Henderson]

If the SS never discharged for nuisance contact with metal or wet wood, destroying a (replaceable at cost+profit) part of itself and the saw blade in the process, then it could be called a one-time insurance payment.

I haven't counted, but I'd say the number of nuisance discharges outnumber the limb-saving ones ~10:1. So add the cost of 10 cartridges and 10 saw blades to that "insurance" cost.

Add to that, the SS's incompatibility with the best dado sets (because SS didn't bother to beef up the arbor to handle the momentum). Did somebody say SS was a well-built machine?

If you want that kind of insurance, you're more than welcome to it.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

I don't know where you get your 10:1 statistic but that certainly is not my experience. I've had one activation where it wasn't my finger.

Mike

[But even if I had to pay for 10 activations to save my finger, I'd pay it. My fingers are worth that to me. But I haven't had to pay for 10 activations yet.]