Dovetails

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all
I've haven't made anything yet with dovetails. The wife wants a simple box for the bathroom, so I figured now's the time to learn. Got all my tools in order, watched some YouTube and went to work. Needless to say, I now have a much greater appreciation for those of you who make beautiful dovetails. I've made 3 boxes (24 dovetails) now and they have all turned out like crap. I think I've done just about everything wrong and while frustrating it makes me want to learn all the more. I just can't get them to fit nice off the saw. I think I'm sawing to the line, square and straight, but every single time they need paring and that's really when all goes to hell. Maybe I'm transferring wrong, but I've watched Paul's and Rob's videos every single night and think I'm following the steps to a tee. When I try to saw right to the line on my pins, they're to big and then the tails fit loose / poorly. When I try to saw just a bit in, too skinny and then pairing. I've also noticed I tend to saw my tails with just the slightest round at the top. It's hard to explain via text, but when I transfer my tails I notice just the slightest round at the top. I don't see it while I'm checking my saw lines. Everything I've done so far has been In straight grain Doug fir, so the sawing hasn't been the easiest as I hit the hard spots and it really jams me up.

Anyways no real questions just a vent and to say bravo to those of you who can do it well. I really thought it looked quite easy before I tried it. Keep up the good work!

[Derek Cohen]

Michael, no doubt that you will get plenty of advice from others, and all good. Please try following the pictorial of mine below, and report back your experiences.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...ovetails3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Softwoods like Douglas Fir are harder to work. A good medium hardwood like cherry is better to practice on, it guides the saw more accurately. Take a scrap peice, knife 20 dovetail lines and cut to the line but leave it alone. Support the angle and cut with your thumb against the saw at the top, I cut straight down on through dovetails, stopping just before the bottom. With the waste gone I slide a chisel down the line to clean the corner, it leaves a crisp corner.

[Robert Engel]

You're simply experiencing what all of us have. It takes some practice, but once you get the first one, you're off (you just have to remember what you did ha ha).

The key is accurate marking and sawing.

That said, if you would describe the tools you're using, therein might lie some of your problem. It is extremely difficult to get good results with a saw that is sub-standard.

Personally, I only scribe lines when I need extremely accurate joints. For drawers, etc, I use a pencil, flattened one side (rub on some sandpaper) and hold the flat side against the pin to mark the tail (or vice versa). Always leave the line/saw to the waste side.

Practice sawing as William said, straight lines and angles lines.

Straight grain soft wood like you're using will be harder to saw because the saw will tend to follow the grain. The key there is hold the saw with a lighter touch & use deliberate, but gentle strokes let the saw do the work.

Something like poplar or basswood milled to 1/2" are good for practicing. If your saw is leaving jagged, serrated lines, it is not suitable. You want a thin kerf rip saw, 14TPI to start.

You don't need a $250 saw. Even a $15 gent's saw can be made to work. You will need to de-set the teeth, as they are usually set way to wide, and probably will need a resharpening to a rip saw tooth configuration. Not so hard to do saw files are very cheap. De-setting can also be done by simply tapping between two hardwood blocks.

Hope this helps!

[Chris Fournier]

The learning curve is up hill again! I don't cut dovetails all the time or even much of the time. When I have a dovetail job coming up I start cutting a single dovetail first thing when I get to my shop, a little throw away practice. After a week, I'm all warmed up. I just finished a dovetail carcass in 1" hard maple and if my time was money I could not afford the cabinet! Stay on it, you'll become an expert if you want to be one!

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Michael, Cutting dovetails can be a difficult process to get right. For some it comes easy. It took me years to finally 'get it.'

Reading and watching others explain their process can be helpful. It may be one trick or just the way it is presented to make it click and come together for you.

Derek is very good at presenting his methods of working.

One of the things to help on my journey to cutting better dovetails was to use some scrap pieces of 1X4 construction fir from Home Depot or Lowes for practice. A couple tails would be marked and cut then examined to determine what corrections to my method could be done. These would the be cut off, dated and thrown in a box to start another joint. Also helpful is if you cut tails first, do a few of these practice pieces pins first. If you do pins first then make some tails first. It will not only add insights to the differences, it may reveal areas needing an improvement of method.

One solution to your rounded tops is to cut your tails and pins a touch proud. Then they can be taken down with a block plane to square the tops.

Here is a post of mine with most of my dovetailing insights > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750

Another one of my posts doesn't have as much insight into the dovetailing but it uses overly proud pins and tails > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278586 < To me they can become a decorative feature.

What may be my first well done set of dovetails is still one of my favorite pieces. It was just a small bench with a drawer being made for a sharpening station. It was too cold to use glue in the shop. It was just before Christmas so in the house was crazy. The drawer was put together with the thought that it could be glued when it got warm in the spring. That has been over six years now and it is still unglued:

Unglued Dovetail.jpg

The tails on this drawer were also left overly proud and then rounded.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

Hi Michael, Cutting dovetails can be a difficult process to get right. For some it comes easy. It took me years to finally 'get it.'

Reading and watching others explain their process can be helpful. It may be on trick or just the way it is presented to make it click and come together for you.

Derek is very good at presenting his methods of working.

One of the things to help on my journey to cutting better dovetails was to use some scrap pieces of 1X4 construction fir from Home Depot or Lowes for practice. A couple tails would be marked and cut then examined to determine what corrections to my method could be done. These would the be cut off, dated and thrown in a box to start another joint. Also helpful is if you cut tails first, do a few of these practice pieces pins first. If you do pins first then make some tails first. It will not only add insights to the differences, it may reveal areas needing an improvement of method.

One solution to your rounded tops is to cut your tails and pins a touch proud. Then they can be taken down with a block plane to square the tops.

Here is a post of mine with most of my dovetailing insights > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750

Another one of my posts doesn't have as much insight into the dovetailing but it uses overly proud pins and tails > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278586 < To me they can become a decorative feature.

What may be my first well done set of dovetails is still one of my favorite pieces. It was just a small bench with a drawer being made for a sharpening station. It was too cold to use glue in the shop. It was just before Christmas so in the house was crazy. The drawer was put together with the thought that it could be glued when it got warm in the spring. That has been over six years now and it is still unglued:

Unglued Dovetail.jpg

The tails on this drawer were also left overly proud and then rounded.

jtk

Jim, Do you think I could be getting the rounding because I start the saw off, dead level? What I mean is I hold the spine straight up and down till I get my square line started and then tilt the saw once that square line has been established.

The most frustrating part to me about this all is the chisel work. I think I cut a good tail/s, get all excited that its going to turn out good, saw pins, spend all that time chiseling and then crappy fit.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, Do you think I could be getting the rounding because I start the saw off, dead level? What I mean is I hold the spine straight up and down till I get my square line started and then tilt the saw once that square line has been established.

That does explain why the top of the tail isn't sharp. One part of using the saw that took me a long time to learn is using the horns. The heel of your hand can press down on the lower horn to make the saw just kiss the wood as it is starting to cut.

The most frustrating part to me about this all is the chisel work. I think I cut a good tail/s, get all excited that its going to turn out good, saw pins, spend all that time chiseling and then crappy fit.

This was another part of the dovetail joint that took me time to learn. Which ever you do first, be it pins or tails, make sure they are as good as you can get them before marking the mate. Then no more paring on the first piece, only on the mate. Make sure the base line is clean before marking the second piece.

If your pins come up loose, you are likely sawing too close to the line. For me, the sides of sawing the tails is likely to be more off than the verticals when sawing the pins. That is why my tails are cut first. They can be squared up and then cutting the pins is easy. Do the hard part first.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

Another thing I've learned, that the knife wall is extremely fragile. It might be because its douglas fir, but it seems like no matter how careful I am, I bruise or move that wall every single time.

[Mike Henderson]

Make your cuts a bit off the line, into the waste area. Then use a chisel to pare back to the line.

After you get good at sawing you will be able to get a good fit off the saw. There's a bunch of "hints" that I could give you but it's difficult to teach remotely. Take a look at one of my tutorials here, here, here, and here.

Mike

[Tom M King]

I could never do as good of a job with a marking knife, as I can with a sharp no. 4 pencil. A good no. 4 pencil line can be as small as any scribed line. You have to either leave the line, or take the line. I could never exactly get right with leaving a scribed line. Here is another case, like I mentioned recently about sharpening saws, where being able to see what you are doing is most important. I've been blessed with good eyesight (so far, knock on wood), but I still need good lighting. It's the same reason Derek uses the blue tape-to be able to see Exactly where. I always saw to the line's edge-either edge as required, but it's absolutely mandatory that I have a good view of that line's edge.

[Michael Fross]

All good advice. Everyone learns differently. What turned my dovetails around was taking a dovetail class with Rob Cosman. He has a very scientific approach which registered with me. I’m sure he has a lot of videos on YouTube which shows his methods. Just a suggestion if you have not already seen them.

Michael

[Rick Erickson]

All good advice. Everyone learns differently. What turned my dovetails around was taking a dovetail class with Rob Cosman. He has a very scientific approach which registered with me. I’m sure he has a lot of videos on YouTube which shows his methods. Just a suggestion if you have not already seen them.

Michael

Yep - same here. Getting back into woodworking - it's been a number of years. If he comes close to your town - jump on it. Unfortunately I moved to a town he doesn't frequent often if at all. YT is the next best thing. Just finished reading Derek's post. You can't go wrong with that.

[glenn bradley]

Make your cuts a bit off the line, into the waste area. Then use a chisel to pare back to the line.

After you get good at sawing you will be able to get a good fit off the saw. There's a bunch of "hints" that I could give you but it's difficult to teach remotely. Take a look at one of my tutorials here, here, here, and here.

Mike

I made some of my best dovetails while Mike was standing nearby telling me what to do .

Certainly it is an acquired skill like many things in our craft. The things that come more easily to us, we tend to take for granted. Somewhere on this forum there is a guy who does great dovetails who cannot figure out how I get a good veneer cut off the bandsaw. Don't ledt struggles with one aspect of the craft take away from the things you can do well. Check out Mike's tutorials and set aside a few chunks of time to practice on blanks that you make up for that purpose. I can get through them but, there's a lot of things I like doing a lot better .

[Michael J Evans]

The learning curve is up hill again! I don't cut dovetails all the time or even much of the time. When I have a dovetail job coming up I start cutting a single dovetail first thing when I get to my shop, a little throw away practice. After a week, I'm all warmed up. I just finished a dovetail carcass in 1" hard maple and if my time was money I could not afford the cabinet! Stay on it, you'll become an expert if you want to be one!

The one plus to all this practice is I now have some benchtop caddy boxes.