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Thread: Good enough vs overkill

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Well I am am not an engineer and i disagree with your statement.
    Clearly, I gathered that from your original post. If you don't understand, or bother to calculate properly what you're building, you're often stuck with overkill, which is just wasteful in so many ways.

    Remember, you asked for opinions
    Last edited by mike stenson; 06-01-2020 at 12:35 PM.
    ~mike

    scope creep

  2. #47
    I do agree that mark did ask for opinions.

    I do however think that some not all are taking the question out of context. But that’s complicated as ones opinion in the matter is gonna influence perspective. Lots,of things to factor in to opinion and perspective.

    I think one guy might work work for a very different reason than the next guy. Not every guy is like me or mark and working wood to recognize a myriad of personal, moral, or practice reasons. Crap people build stuff for all kinds a reason some none of the ones I listed.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh View Post
    I do agree that mark did ask for opinions.

    I do however think that some not all are taking the question out of context. But that’s complicated as ones opinion in the matter is gonna influence perspective. Lots,of things to factor in to opinion and perspective.

    I think one guy might work work for a very different reason than the next guy. Not every guy is like me or mark and working wood to recognize a myriad of personal, moral, or practice reasons. Crap people build stuff for all kinds a reason some none of the ones I listed.
    I agree. To be honest, much of the initial post can come across as an attack on engineering in general. Since well, that's exactly what we do. Solve problems that have considerations.
    ~mike

    scope creep

  4. #49
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    Hi Mike,

    I welcome opinions and discussion with explanations of points of view, because quite often there are different takes on the questions, so with a discussion we come to a common understanding of what we are all talking about.

    I have a shop full of old machinery, for example, A beautiful 30" Robinson bandsaw from 1951, weighs around 3000lbs and a Dean Smith and Grace 13" x 40" lathe that weighs in around 5000lbs by all means call them overkill if you like, but don't say that they are designed by the lazy or ignorant. These are brilliant pieces of machinery, that have worked for seventy years ..so far.
    I like the attitude that went into building them, i have owned and used modern made machines made with a different attitude, a short term, barely there, off the shelf cheap parts rather than parts designed specifically for the purpose. Landfill.

    10 years ago i had an expensive monitor that died after 2 years of use. No help from the manufacturer at all. a bit of research, found it to be a common failure, 6 $1.25 capacitors and it was back working, its this kind of stuff that ends in the landfill.
    I have an old Devilbiss, (probably 40 or 50 years old) compressor in my shop. I worked for a guy that bought the cheapest compressor he could buy and replaced it each year as they crapped out. economics he told me. more landfill.

    So... are you going to answer my question, who would you want building your furniture?




    Quote Originally Posted by mike stenson View Post
    Clearly, I gathered that from your original post. If you don't understand, or bother to calculate properly what you're building, you're often stuck with overkill, which is just wasteful in so many ways.

    Remember, you asked for opinions

  5. #50
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    One person's "perfection" is another person's "half-ass". The original poster doesn't seem to have a concept of just how expensive and ridiculous "overkill" can be.

  6. #51
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    Hi Mike,

    Sorry if i came across as attacking engineering that was not my intention. I have had arguments with engineers on this forum before, but not about what you do, so I was not attacking that at all.

    It is simple a question of the reasons that guide our decisions, your work ethic, and how and why we make our choices.

    It wasn't really about engineers, the video and the photos were just to show the extremes.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike stenson View Post
    I agree. To be honest, much of the initial post can come across as an attack on engineering in general. Since well, that's exactly what we do. Solve problems that have considerations.

  7. #52
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    Art,
    The original poster knows quite a lot about the cost of "overkill" Thanks.



    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    One person's "perfection" is another person's "half-ass". The original poster doesn't seem to have a concept of just how expensive and ridiculous "overkill" can be.

  8. #53
    If I can make a glued edge joint that is visually perfect using a jointer is that "good enough"? Must I achieve overkill by "improving" it with a handplane to be fit to call myself a furnituremaker? Can I use spline tenons for the corner joints of a table frame or a door, or must I use fox-wedged tenons? Am I one of the "crap people" if I use a miterfold instead of a lock miter on a cabinet return?

    There is an element of moral hectoring here that I find a little off-putting. I agree that I need to aim high in my work to produce work that I find acceptable, but I think I can safely decide what is "good enough" without gilding the lily (aka overkill).

  9. #54
    And not everything is life is about money.

    I get to many money is very much the number one motivator the number one consideration. I get not everyone has the fortune to have the luxury to be concerned to the Degree a bunch of board old guys do. It we should all care. And so long as we put money first, we build crap, we build crap it go’s in a giant hole, it goes in the]at giant hole and we are very clearly kill in ourselfs. But if we as a group a species change our thinking, our perspective, maybe even our motives we can actually do something about it.

    I believe there are a number of things that should trump money.

    Not destroying the planet as in marks video just the starting point of a giant Iceberg directly related to at last marks perspective and mine..



    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    One person's "perfection" is another person's "half-ass". The original poster doesn't seem to have a concept of just how expensive and ridiculous "overkill" can be.

  10. #55
    I don’t think you perceived tone is accurate.

    So yesterday I walked by some crap Cyprus planters I made all timberlocked and stainless steel screwed together. Self admittedly they are all falling apart. But I knew that at the time and it was the decision I made for a myriad of reasons at the time.

    I miter fold, butt joint glue ups, the list goes on and on. I have to as I have to make a living and that’s all I can figure a way to get paid to do. Am I proud of it, to I morally or ethically agree with it. Not at all. The facts are anyone buying a $40-200k kitchen can afford to buy something that will not be put in a dumpster in 20 years. But our ethic as a society sourounding this topic is imop defunct broken shattered misguided and to be perfectly honest since I am pathetic.

    Very much like what’s going on with out justice system different but the the same. Humans have the capacity for anything we put our minds to. But we choose to be concerned with very harmful things in mind of our personal self fulfillment and ideals. It’s pretty freaking ugly..

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    If I can make a glued edge joint that is visually perfect using a jointer is that "good enough"? Must I achieve overkill by "improving" it with a handplane to be fit to call myself a furnituremaker? Can I use spline tenons for the corner joints of a table frame or a door, or must I use fox-wedged tenons? Am I one of the "crap people" if I use a miterfold instead of a lock miter on a cabinet return?

    There is an element of moral hectoring here that I find a little off-putting. I agree that I need to aim high in my work to produce work that I find acceptable, but I think I can safely decide what is "good enough" without gilding the lily (aka overkill).

  11. #56
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    I thought this started out with a strong & familiar background accompaniment of ‘grinding’. Same song, different day.
    -Out.

  12. #57
    For instance.

    My shop door was to small for my work.

    So I had to cut it.

    81BBAD5C-4C41-41EC-8D07-DA6E087E8101.jpg

    Temporarily I threw these doors together with some crap leftovers I had laying around. Believe it or not they are air tight. A wee rigid insulation Glued to the inside and I’m good technically speaking at least.

    8828FB66-5880-441F-BDC7-92DA38C521D1.jpg

    But no that’s not gonna cut it for me and I guess technically would be good enough for some. Here’s what I will do genuine mahogany, sipo, sapele whatever all real M&T pegged. Taken proper care of they should last the rest of my life. I’m 42.. lotsa options but most will leave me lacking satisfaction largely based my need to not succumb to good enough as I have no interest in participating.

    8C7B5874-4B0C-451F-9537-D3AA51B3621E.jpg

    Building those planters felt like a chore even though it was done before I started. Every moment of this project will be bliss..

  13. #58
    It is definitely possible to build something too good. My grandfather made benches for our greenhouses back in the 1940s out of cement for growing cut chrysanthemums. Very solid and built to last generations. He did the same for geraniums in the 1950s.

    The problem is: they have lasted for generations. We haven't grown chrysanthemums since 1954; we couldn't compete with the cheaper grown flowers from the southern USA, even though ours were better. But we are stuck with those benches because they are too hard to pull out. They are awful for retail sales, and that has been their only use for the last 66 years.

    Same with the geranium benches. What was top of the line in the 1950s, now causes mold problems with modern growing methods. Believe it or not, growing plants commercially has changed in the last 60 years. What worked then will put you out of business now. We really want to replace them, but it is an enormous effort, and probably not worth it.

    All in all, we would have been better off if they had been built "good enough" rather than "overkill".

  14. #59
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    If the place where you live is not built to withstand a direct hit from a thermo-nuclear device, then you do not know what the cost of "overkill" can be first hand. What you are doing is choosing some arbitrary standard, which might be regarded as pure crap by some fabulously wealthy person, and calling it "overkill".
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Art,
    The original poster knows quite a lot about the cost of "overkill" Thanks.

  15. #60
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    Art, I don't know how we got here.

    I showed a video that i saw as an example of cheap, fast, barely there, bridge and a photo a 1200 year Roman bridge, to make a point how societies attitudes have changed to the modern disposable society, where we build cheap stuff to been thrown out after a few uses.

    We live in a time where it is not difficult to do good woodwork, we can if fact do better work, more efficiently than in any time in human history, yet there is so much bad work being done. I have seen decks that i would be afraid to stand on, stairs i wouldn't climb, i have been into workshops where they do crappy work with shitty equipment, i see piles of hardly used household and garden appliances at the end of peoples driveway for the garbage every week, and i watch the news about the damage that we have done to the environment, and i am saddened by it, so i spout off about doing better every chance i get. I see the good enough attitude pushed by woodworkers all the time, I disagree and so will argue the point.

    I try to do the best that i can, always have, I got that from my father, and I try to encourage others to do so also.
    There is no reward for trying, no reward for doing more, it in fact cost you quite lot, but if you see things that way, what else can you do?

    Everyone has their own way of seeing things and the forum is here to share, learn and encourage one another.

    my two cents,










    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    If the place where you live is not built to withstand a direct hit from a thermo-nuclear device, then you do not know what the cost of "overkill" can be first hand. What you are doing is choosing some arbitrary standard, which might be regarded as pure crap by some fabulously wealthy person, and calling it "overkill".
    Last edited by Mark Hennebury; 06-01-2020 at 5:49 PM.

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