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Thread: Help me decide on beveled chisels. Richter or Pfeil

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    Help me decide on beveled chisels. Richter or Pfeil

    Hi everyone

    It been some time since I last bought a chisel set. I mostly use Hidari oire nomi and have couple inexpensive Dictum branded beveled chisels for tight spaces and tails corners.

    Since I started to use more and more oak and chestnut the Dictum ones needed a lot more resharpening and it costs me a lot of time but mostly calmness during working.

    I want to but a set of better ones and my budget is around 150 euros for a set of 5-6.

    I've narrowed the search to Pfeil beveled edge and Narex Richter cryosteel.
    Of course any other suggestions close to my budget would be appreciated.

    Has anyone tried the above chisels?

    Note that I do live in Greece, which is a quality handtool desert.... To try the above ones I will have to spend 40-60 euros on one chisel from different European shops to get them delivered to me. So I have to choose only online.....

  2. #2
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    Thanks for the post. I too am interested primarily in the Pfeil bevel edge. I have been eyeing them for a year and reviews on their performance are scant. I handled some Pfeil in a local Woodcraft store and they were amazing, very well balanced and contour was lovely; and the very few reviews I have seen suggested the steel was excellent. They are expensive though and while I can afford them at $35-$40US each, I want to be sure before I pull the trigger on them. I currently have a set of the Stanley Sweethearts, which are ok, and various other cheapo chisels for rougher work, all are ok, but all do not feel comfortable like those Pfeil chisels did. I bought a three chisel set of the Narex mortise chisels and have used them twice, and they work well, stay sharp for a while, although I don't think they were Richter chisels, or at least they were not marketed that way here. Good luck, I am looking forward to following ths thread

  3. #3
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    First, I would not purchase a set: we all have a few sizes we always use, sobuy one of each makes and try for a while. Then fill in later. For me, If I had to pick a favorite brand from the new chisel makes I have (sorry, no Pfeils), I like Ashley Isles butt length and round back style.
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  4. #4
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    I handled some Pfeil in a local Woodcraft store and they were amazing, very well balanced and contour was lovely
    One of my standard comments rendered in response to tool buying questions is for people to find tools with a good feel in the hand.

    This is my main reason for purchasing socket chisels. It is easy to make handles for my own comfort in use.

    Whether to purchase a set or one at a time is a mater of personal choice. My chisels were mostly purchased one or a few at a time. For more than decade of pursuing different sizes, a set of Buck Brothers bevel edged chisels, 1/8 to 1" by 1/8ths, has been assembled. Of course a set of these isn't readily available. The 1/8" isn't heavily used but it does come in handy at times.

    My first set of chisels was being assembled one at a time. They were Sandvic chisels available at a local hardware chain. When going to purchase a 1/4" chisel the maker changed the handle and the name was changed to Bacho. The new style wasn't as comfortable in hand to me. My first three chisels are still in my shop.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 05-10-2020 at 10:38 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michail Kyriazanos View Post
    ... Note that I do live in Greece, ...
    It's hard to give advice from the US, as your market is so different than ours.

    I do have a Pfeil chisel to try and liked it, in the end I decided the Ashley Iles chisels where a better choice for me, here. The differences are subtle and I'm sure either would have been a good choice. Ashley Iles is from the UK and I don't know if they're even an option for you. (Trade within the EU is supposed to be easy, but with UK in this transition period I'm sure it is weird now.)

    I have a few Narex chisels and they seem like a great value, but they are very "beefy". The Richter line sounds wonderful in the advertisements, but I haven't seen one and the only online posting I've seen claims some quality problems. (When you don't know the source, it is always hard to know when the problem is the product, the individual sample, or the reviewer. I'd call this an unknown still.)

    You say you have "Hidari oire nomi". What's wrong with them? I'm used to Japanese chisel users raving about their choice and I'm surprised you are looking for an alternative. Good luck, happy shopping, (and thanks for letting us help spend your money! )

    Oh, PS- I agree with the others that you don't need a full set. 3 or 4 is probably plenty for most folks, though which 3 or 4 depends on your work, work style, and personal preferences. Knowing up front which *you* will use isn't easy to predict. I recently took a handtool class and in it I only used 3, though I'd brought a few more. One was narrow'ish, just small enough to fit in the corners (1/4" or 3/8", I forget), a somewhat wider one for flushing things (5/8" or 3/4"), and a mortise chisel (1/4" since that's what the class required and the only one I brought.) So, two very different style, three total, for a variety of tasks.

  6. #6
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    Thank you all for your responses.

    Richter's from Germany comes at 25euros each. And Pfeils at 18 each.

    Shipping costs 28euros for a single chisel or a set.

    These are sold from separate shops in Germany so I can order both from one seller and save on testing them.

    Set of Pfeils is 136 euros while Richter 130.

    So especially on Richters I can have 5 for 158 or single for 56....

    That's why I'm leaning towards a set. I mostly use 6,10/12 and 18mm of course. So it's better deal to go for set.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Bassett View Post
    It's hard to give advice from the US, as your market is so different than ours.

    I do have a Pfeil chisel to try and liked it, in the end I decided the Ashley Iles chisels where a better choice for me, here. The differences are subtle and I'm sure either would have been a good choice. Ashley Iles is from the UK and I don't know if they're even an option for you. (Trade within the EU is supposed to be easy, but with UK in this transition period I'm sure it is weird now.)

    I have a few Narex chisels and they seem like a great value, but they are very "beefy". The Richter line sounds wonderful in the advertisements, but I haven't seen one and the only online posting I've seen claims some quality problems. (When you don't know the source, it is always hard to know when the problem is the product, the individual sample, or the reviewer. I'd call this an unknown still.)

    You say you have "Hidari oire nomi". What's wrong with them? I'm used to Japanese chisel users raving about their choice and I'm surprised you are looking for an alternative. Good luck, happy shopping, (and thanks for letting us help spend your money! )

    Oh, PS- I agree with the others that you don't need a full set. 3 or 4 is probably plenty for most folks, though which 3 or 4 depends on your work, work style, and personal preferences. Knowing up front which *you* will use isn't easy to predict. I recently took a handtool class and in it I only used 3, though I'd brought a few more. One was narrow'ish, just small enough to fit in the corners (1/4" or 3/8", I forget), a somewhat wider one for flushing things (5/8" or 3/4"), and a mortise chisel (1/4" since that's what the class required and the only one I brought.) So, two very different style, three total, for a variety of tasks.
    Thank you David, can you please share the source that mentions quality problems with Richters to help me?

    Hidari handles 90% of my work. I have couple of vintage Mortise and as stated some Dictum branded beveled edge.
    The Hidari have thick side bevels, similar to western type firmer chisels. If I get too close to angled corners and dovetail tails they bruise the wood easily.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michail Kyriazanos View Post
    Thank you David, can you please share the source that mentions quality problems with Richters to help me? ...
    As I said, hard to know how much weight to give a stranger's opinion, but I found the thread I was remembering:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....71#post3015771


    In searching to find that one, I found another that is more positive (so the first might have been a single bad chisel or a hyper-critical user. Who knows?):

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....67#post3008567


    Also, I want to add that I dug out the Pfeil chisel I have and for fit & finish and the general feel in my hand I'd have been very happy with them. They're a little different, but no worse, than the Ashley Iles I've been using, in feel and balance. I guess part of my choice was preferring to support TFWW, a US company I like. (Well that and the whole metric thing.) Maybe you can find someone who's used the Pfeils more to get a more thorough evaluation.

  9. #9
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    Michail, I have several sets of chisels. Their different shapes and handling are of more interest than the steel. Both sets of chisels you mention fall in my definition of standard, somewhat clumsy chisels. Ashley Isles chisels are slim and far more delicate, long paring chisels, with a low angle bevel they are very precise. They are not of the ‘wackum’ variety.
    Your Japanese chisels should fulfill most needs, including some ‘wackum’ use.
    Somewhat crude chisels see less use the more precise your work becomes. They do have their uses however, removing paint from metal doors etc. Lee Valley have a set of bench chisels in your price range, unbreakable handles.
    Your planned projects will determine your chisel needs, price seems paramount however. Consider a secondary bevel change on the cheap chisels you have now to improve their use between sharpenings.
    While having a full set can be reassuring spending your budget on fewer better/different chisels is preferable to having a set that may ultimately end up buried in a drawer somewhere.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Michail, I have several sets of chisels. Their different shapes and handling are of more interest than the steel. Both sets of chisels you mention fall in my definition of standard, somewhat clumsy chisels. Ashley Isles chisels are slim and far more delicate, long paring chisels, with a low angle bevel they are very precise. They are not of the ‘wackum’ variety.
    Your Japanese chisels should fulfill most needs, including some ‘wackum’ use.
    Somewhat crude chisels see less use the more precise your work becomes. They do have their uses however, removing paint from metal doors etc. Lee Valley have a set of bench chisels in your price range, unbreakable handles.
    Your planned projects will determine your chisel needs, price seems paramount however. Consider a secondary bevel change on the cheap chisels you have now to improve their use between sharpenings.
    While having a full set can be reassuring spending your budget on fewer better/different chisels is preferable to having a set that may ultimately end up buried in a drawer somewhere.
    Thanks for the input William, do you refer to Ashley Iles Mk2 beveled edge nor the round dovetail ones?

    They are not away of my price range so I will consider them.

  11. #11
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    I purchased one Richter to try out and it was very well finished, with a back that didn`t need but a few minutes work.
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  12. #12
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    In their catalogue they are just called bevel edged chisels, not mark 2. They have a very small side bevel, ideal for dovetails. The rounded chisels actually look worse for dovetails! Because they are long and slim they are excellent for detailed paring. They offer a more delicate feel; offering something different.
    I see nothing in the catalogue called ‘mark 2’.
    If you are doing detailed work I think you will like them, their length makes them different from the Japanese chisels. Between these and some Japanese chisels they cover almost all my needs.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    I purchased one Richter to try out and it was very well finished, with a back that didn`t need but a few minutes work.
    Tony, how "beefy" is it? Narex says finer, but given the heft of their less premium line they could be finer and still be pretty stout compared to vintage & some of the other brands.


    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    In their catalogue they are just called bevel edged chisels, not mark 2. They have a very small side bevel, ideal for dovetails. The rounded chisels actually look worse for dovetails! Because they are long and slim they are excellent for detailed paring. They offer a more delicate feel; offering something different.
    I see nothing in the catalogue called ‘mark 2’.
    If you are doing detailed work I think you will like them, their length makes them different from the Japanese chisels. Between these and some Japanese chisels they cover almost all my needs.
    Joel at TFWW calls them Mk 2 Bevel Edge Chisels. (I don't know the reason, I assume to distinguish them from a style TFWW carried in the past.) I've got to assume they're the same thing.

  14. #14
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    Well, I've never tried their bench chisels, but over the years I've bought a lot of Pfeil tools, carving tools, knives, their little carver's drawknife, and I've not been disappointed in any of them.

    DC

  15. #15
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    Apr 2019
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    Hi Michail,

    While I haven’t tried the Narex Richter chisels, I did purchase a Pfeil bevel edge chisel based in part on my enjoyment of their carving tools. The Pfeil bevel edge chisel had some initial setup inconvenience: the back was nicely flat but had been aggressively polished with some kind of compliant abrasive (a buffing wheel, perhaps) to the point that the sides were rounded all the way from handle to edge. I would guess something around 1/4 to 1/2 mm, but I didn’t measure. It took quite a bit of work on the back to get sharp corners at the cutting edge.
    My experience with it as a bench chisel is that it is best used for paring tasks. The steel takes a very good edge and holds it reasonably well, but the chisel hasn’t worked well for me for other than for very light mallet work, similar to how I would use a mallet with their carving tools. Why? Two reasons: the shape of the handle fits my hand better for pushing, and the steel would chip every time I tried to use it for chopping dovetail waste. It’s entirely possible that the original edge was more brittle than the bulk of the steel and now that I’ve been using it for a while and gone through a number of sharpenings the edge will behave better. However, I have found that I like Japanese oiire nomi better for chopping and have no reason to use the Pfeil other than for paring tasks anyway.

    The Pfeil bevel edge chisel takes and holds a better edge and sharpens more easily than the Narex bevel edge chisels I purchased from Lee Valley as my first bench chisels, though I understand that the steel is different in the Richter line. It takes almost as fine an edge as my white #1 steel hand forged usu nomi (Japanese paring chisels), but does not hold it as well—I am still taking fine end grain shavings of red oak and hard maple with the usu nomi at the point that I would have sharpened the Pfeil several times and the standard Narex at least half a dozen times.

    I do like the Pfeil, but mostly use it now when it’s the best size for the task (it’s in between two of my sizes of usu nomi).

    I hope this helps.

    Best regards,
    Michael Bulatowicz
    Last edited by Michael Bulatowicz; 05-11-2020 at 7:51 AM. Reason: clarification

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