Closet remodeling

[joe webb]

Hello all,

Hope everyone is safe and healthy during this pandemic. I am back for a new project.

Now that we can't travel, I have plenty of time for DIY projects, so I will start ripping off all our closets one by one to put shelves and cabinet in them. We have both walk-in and reach-in closets.

I've been watching gazillion of YouTube videos on cabinet making and getting super itchy to start. But first thing first, I'd like to get your input and tips on few remaining open questions.

I don't have those kick-ass woodworking shop uber saws, but I have most stuff that homeowners have such as 10" sliding miter saw, 10" job site table saw, 7" circular saw, jigsaw, drill sanders, router etc. And I have been building jigs to help me make repeatable cuts such as rip cuts with a constant width, dado cuts with router/circular/table saw, etc.

1) What is the easiest method to cut the locking rabbet joint for drawers? I have seen tutorial using a 1/4" wide dado stack, but the plywood I have is under 1/2" thick and each blade is 1/8, so it won't work for me. Is there a jig or spacers to help with making consistent cuts on the table saw?

2) I have a biscuit joiner, would that kind of joint strong enough? Definitely faster then cutting the lock-rabbet.

3) I don't like painting the cabinets. What kind of finish is durable enough for storing clothes? Polyurethane? Danish Oil? Tung Oil? I don't mind the clear look. Is it faster to finish before cutting the 4x8 into smaller pieces? Do we light sand plywood before finish?

4) Is a plywood C-3 grade smooth enough and easy to finish? I like this plywood Columbia Forest Products 3/4 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft. PureBond Maple Plywood from HD. Another option would be a pre-finished plywood for an additional 10% cost Swaner Hardwood Prefinished Birch Plywood (Common: 3/4 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft.; Actual: 0.703 in. x 48 in. x 96 in.). The core seems of higher quality (13ply vs 7ply) as well. My only concern is how can I get the edge to match the finish.


Thanks much

[Thomas McCurnin]

Unless this is to be fine woodworking (pun intended), I treat most closet woodworking projects like shop cabinets.

1. Drawers. I would use pocket screws. A Kreg Jig is about $170 and is so easy a cave man could use it, literally from table saw to finished drawer in about 5 minutes each drawer, including bottoms. I'm not sure what the problem with locking rabbet joints is, as I use regular 1/2" drawer stock which while not exactly 1/2" is pretty darn close. But you'll have to run test cuts for fitting the rabbet and the length of the sides. With the Kreg jig, you cut the drawers to exact length (less the finish drawer front) and the drawer front to exact width of the drawer space less about 1" for the two slides (plus a frog's hair) and less 1" for the drawer sides. Not a lot of math or head scratching with a Kreg. Add a finished drawer front to cover up the screws and, if you want, to cover up the plywood edges of the casework.

2. Biscuit Joiner. I've had two of these and do like them for aligning sheet goods, but not for drawers. I don't think they'll be strong enough.

3. Finish. I think I would use the prefinished plywood like your stuff in point 4 below. I would not want to use oil because it won't dry very fast and will smell for a considerable period of time, but it will eventually dry. Plan B would be to use some rattle can shellac or lacquer. Super easy if you do light coats, and you could do a half dozen coats a day. Consider melamine plywood as well.

4. Plywood. Most good cabinets, even my shop cabinets, have baltic birch with multiple plys. Your stuff looks good. I would edge band the ply, either with el cheapo iron on edge band, or I'd make up some maple strips about 7/8" x 1/8" x length and brad nail and glue them in place. Use a flush trim router to even them out. You could go 3/4" too, but it won't leave you the space for breathing room when trimming. To match, I'd make up a bunch of maple strips and try some various stains and finishes. I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to match with a maple stain and a rattle can finish.

[joe webb]

Thanks for your input Thomas. This is definitely not fine woodworking as I don't have much of woodworking experience yet.

As a disclaimer, I am not a Kreg fan. Kreg's products way too expensive for an average quality built and a so-so design. There are other equivalents at 1/2 or 1/3 of the price. I cannot see myself spending $170 for just a jig. That is more than my miter saw. But the deal breaker is I find the pocket holes to be an eye sore. I know they won't be exposed, but I can't take any satisfaction looking at the assembled drawer

Isn't melamine very hard to cut w/o chipping?

I haven't used shellac or lacquer. What are their benefits say over a water-based polyurethane? Isn't can spray very expensive for a large surface?

I don't mind exposing the edge when it comes to baltic birch. The 13 ply void free core looks nice to me. But the pre-finished layer looks very hard to replicate. It's a clear layer that is almost rubbery and quite tough to scratch. It sounds like you are suggesting to make my own edge band with the same plywood. Cutting 1/8" thick seems tedious. Might be less work to use unfinished plywood with matching edge band and apply a finish.

Cheers

[David Stone (CT)]

You say the dado stack method won't work for you because your drawer plywood isn't a full 1/2" thick, but why not? The width of the tongue needs to exactly match that of the groove and with the dado set 1/4" is the obvious choice. But it doesn't follow that the negative portion also must be 1/4 "--it can be whatever the remaining thickness is on your plywood so long as there is at least enough step to make the joint work. So first cut the 1/4 " groove on the saw, being sure the interior face of the groove is back from the end at a distance exactly equal to the thickness of your ply, whatever that is. Use a stop block on a crosscut sled, or some other means, to register this distance and ensure all cuts are the same. Then cut the tongue, where the two critical things are the height, since that establishes the thickness of the tongue and how well it fits the groove, and the distance between the shoulders of the tongues at each end, since that controls the width of the drawers. (Note: Things go easier if you deliberately make the length of the tongue a hair less than the depth of the groove. Otherwise, if this measurement isn't exactly right and completely consistent across all your stock, Murphy's law means some of your drawers may bottom out on the tongues before the shoulders fully seat, leaving a gap there that looks uglier than a tiny one at the end of the tongue.)

Finally, there's nothing to say the groove has to be 1/4 " wide or even that deep. My saw isn't dado compatible, so I make the groove with a regular blade, which gives a width of 1/8 " or requires two passes, and the tongue on the router table. The limitations of my set up argue for narrower, shallower tongues and grooves, which I've found work just fine, at least assuming high quality baltic birch, since the numerous plies and lack of voids provide plenty of glue surface and mechanical strength.

[joe webb]

Thanks David. I understand the setup you described. I brought up the dado blades because watching this video (https://youtu.be/_Z3pMyNPfi0) it looks like a reliable way to make repeatable cuts because once the blades are setup, he can do all the cuts.

With your setup, how do you minimize the adjustments to the blade when switching between the different cuts (tongue & groove)? My main concern is moving the blade will make cuts less repeatable unless I can find a way to use spacers/jigs to help with the setup. I also prefer not to use the dado blades if possible. The standard blade is more versatile and if I can do everything with one blade, it saves me time from switching them.

I didn't know some saw can't use dado blades. I thought they all do. How do I tell? The reason I said the groove is 1/4" wide is because the 2 side dado blades are 1/8" thick. Thus the smallest groove is 1/4" and biggest can be close to 1".

[Jim Dwight]

You should look for a you tube on the Next Level Carpentry channel about drawers. He works in 1/2 inch sheet goods and I think his drawer joint just uses a regular saw blade.

If you plan to use a bunch of sheet goods, you should seriously consider a track saw. I think you can get the Wen from HD, tracks and saw, for $200. You can cut on a sheet of foam insulation. The big advantage is in handling and the ability to make finished cuts. Circular saws do well with cutting to rough size but I never liked them for finished cuts. It seems your table saw is small which also says you need to think about a different tool to cut up sheet goods. If you want to see the Wen in action, look for an Izzy Swan you tube.

I think I used some of that maple plywood on my youngest grandson's crib. It seems like the inner plys were just OK. I actually like the cheaper pine "radianta" plywood they have better but I wouldn't clear finish it for inside the house. I have used it painted and it works great. Surpriseingly good quality for the price, good inner plys with very few voids. One clear face and the other is sound (generally).

I have prefinished plywood myself with polyurethane and I liked the result. I would be prepared to put on at least a coat of wipe on after assembly. Edges would need at least two. Water based would be fine but doesn't come wipe on. The big advantage of finishing it first is you are working on the horizontal and the piece is large. I used a roller and it went really fast. Oil based will amber or yellow maple. Water based will not.

Shellac dries really fast. If you store brushes and rollers in alcohol you do not have to clean them between coats. It is not terribly durable but could be fine for an adults closet. Polyurethane is definitely more durable. I use a lot of shellac for inside drawers.

Iron on edging is at best OK. Issue is durability, especially if it is not perfectly installed. Just finishing the edge is fine as long as it looks OK to you and anybody else affected. Glue on edging is a lot more durable than iron on. The end grain on the edges of plywood soak up a bunch of finish. It will be quite rough after the first coat.

[joe webb]

Thanks Jim. I am a big fan of the Next Level Carpentry channel. Matt is such skilled woodworker and presenter. His videos are super detailed. I think you are referring to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMy5RGblxkY. I don't know how I have missed it. It's a very complete tutorial.

Regarding the Wen tracksaw, is the saw itself that is making nicer cuts or the track system? I have built a jig for rip cuts with a circular saw. It has a fence that ride along the long edge parallel to the cut. Same concept as the Kreg (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kreg-Rip-Cut/1000281745). I am able to get straight cuts and with a good dewalt circular saw that cuts 3/4 plywood like butter. But for sure, the track system makes it easier to push the saw thru and I did look at Kreg's accu-cut tracks.

While I was at the store, I also looked at the pine radiata. The pine core is indeed better than the maple and cost substantially less. I just didn't like the look of it as there are lots of contrast with big darker areas/patterns. But I might go for it due to cost. Lots of closets to build.

I have an electric spray gun. Can I use it to spray shellac? What would I use afterward to clean it?

[Frank Drackman]

If your only issue with pocket holes is aesthetic, put them on the exterior of the drawer. You will never see the back & the front is concealed by the drawer front.

[joe webb]

If your only issue with pocket holes is aesthetic, put them on the exterior of the drawer. You will never see the back & the front is concealed by the drawer front.

I know how it works. Obviously it can't be on any exposed area.

I have used it for some framing and have the mini jig but I am unwilling to use it for woodworking projects because there are so many other superior options for joining.

[Jim Dwight]

Joe, That is the video I was thinking of.

My issues with circular saws was partially blades I think and partially the weaker guiding system. I used what is sometimes called a shoot board. Two layers of plywood with the bottom one cut off with the first use. Keeping the saw against the guide went OK but not nearly as good as guiding my track saw (DeWalt) down the track. I never used a circular saw blade that gave me the cut quality I routinely get with the track saw. Maybe with a better blade? If you can get a cut from your circular saw that is as good as your table saw then you are doing better than I did (assuming a good blade in both). I routinely use track saw cuts for edge glueup. No skill really required. The plunge action is sometimes nice and the depth adjustment is far easier but the main reason I really like the track saw is it gives me accurate high quality cuts. My current shop is too small for me to guide a full sheets through my PCS. But when I did this in my former shop, it was a struggle. The last time I cut up some sheet goods I backed the truck to the shop door and slid the sheets to the cutting table. Just much easier.

I've never used an electric spray gun, at least a decent one. I spray HVLP (Fuji mini mite)

Jim

[David Stone (CT)]

Thanks David. I understand the setup you described. I brought up the dado blades because watching this video (https://youtu.be/_Z3pMyNPfi0) it looks like a reliable way to make repeatable cuts because once the blades are setup, he can do all the cuts.

With your setup, how do you minimize the adjustments to the blade when switching between the different cuts (tongue & groove)? My main concern is moving the blade will make cuts less repeatable unless I can find a way to use spacers/jigs to help with the setup. I also prefer not to use the dado blades if possible. The standard blade is more versatile and if I can do everything with one blade, it saves me time from switching them..

I watched the video you linked, which uses a method in which a single saw set-up works for cutting both parts of the joint: the groove on one piece and the tongue on the other. As you correctly note, one it's set-up with which you can do all the cuts. But recognize that is a highly unusual situation in woodworking, where normally the two parts of any machine-made joint require two different set-ups, accomplished by moving the blade/cutter and/or fence, or even switching tools/machines. The problem with the set-up shown in the video is it's quite dangerous--prohibitively so, IMO. There is no way I would stand a workpiece on end and use the saw fence and my hand to run it over a blade, especially a dado stack, which has an extra big bite. There is way too much opportunity for the workpiece to get leveraged out of perpendicular from the saw table or away from the fence, causing that blade to grab and kickback. I'd urge you not do that.

In the method I described, which is pretty standard, and far safer, you do all grooves on all the workpieces that require them (meaning the drawer sides) first. Then, after changing the set-up, you do all the tongues on all the fronts and backs. The repeatability comes from the fact that you do each part of the joint in batches. Before each batch, you get the appropriate set-up by using scrap pieces while sneaking up on the exact right settings by moving the fence and/or raising or lowering the blade a hair each time-- it usually takes a few tries. There are no spacers or jigs involved, except as described in my earlier answer.

BTW, I do think you should use the dado blades. They'll be the fastest way to cut the groove and tongue.

[Thomas McCurnin]

The last time I did a locking rabbet it came out nice, but .... it was a pain getting the set up right. It took a couple hours and I went through a dozen test pieces to get it to fit, and I ended up with a nice sample, but not a finished drawer. Once you have the sample then you'll have the thickness of the dado dialed in, and probably the height, it will only be the fence setting, and you can use the samples to adjust the fence. I did not find the process very satisfying and I really needed a second table saw to do it right. They do make locking rabbet router bits and I may have a such a bit (I actually think it is miter rabbet bit) but I've never used it except for practice sessions. Again, I did not find the process very appealing.

Instead my shop cabinets have box joints, a/k/a finger joints which, once you have a set up, is a very repeatable and satisfying process. They key is in making the jig, and a local woodworker here has a video which is really good. The cost of the jig is probably under $5 worth of wood. The guy's name is William Ng. Its probably an afternoon making the jig and banging out a few drawers. I would probably want to use solid wood. 1/2" pine would be fine.

I may be beating a dead horse, but I really like the Kreg Jig and the drawers are super strong, set up is a matter of a couple minutes, and like I said, a cave man could do it. No one but you will know there are screws holding the drawer together because there is a false front. Kreg makes a couple different jigs, and there are lower cost alternatives, but you do need some specialized corner clamps.

Another alternative is make through dovetail joints, which can be done with $50 worth of tools, most of which you already have. Again, you would have to use solid wood for the drawers. 1/2" pine is fine and very forgiving. I find that process very satisfying.

[joe webb]

Hi Jim,

Thanks again for the pointing out the video. It is exactly what I needed to know.

Typically the circular saw uses a thinner blade and it could be why the table saw makes cleaner cuts. I have a job site table saw on wheels and pushing a 4x8 sheet thru it would be a hazard. Especially I have no helper with me. I plan to cut the bigger pieces w/ my circular saw. It will take more time for sure.

May be I am not as picky, but my circular saw gives good results. Last year, I cut 1" thick oak stair treads with it and it came out nice. Given it was just 42" long, i used a straight edge. This time, I made a jig that is conceptually the same as this Kreg (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kreg-Rip-Cut/1000281745). After few test cuts, cuts are straight and repeatable. A bit awkward how we hold and push it though.

[joe webb]

Hi Thomas. Thanks for sharing.

I saw that locking rabbet router bit. I asked around and the feedback was it works well with solid wood and high quality plywood such as baltic birch. With so-so plywood, it might tear and break at few places. I saw those finger joint jigs on youtube. Very beautiful joints. But it seems tedious and might be above my skill level.

By the way, i watched 3 times the video referenced above and today I tried it on test pieces. I got it to fit on my third attempt after 40min. If I cut all the drawers in one go, to fine tune the setup should be 15-20min max. Next, I will experiment with a sacrificial fence in order to make the spacing repeatable instead of moving the fence between cuts.

[Jim Dwight]

Joe, I don't get a commission or anything from track saw purchases but if you have the opportunity to try one, I would. It takes awhile, however, to make the changes necessary to get the most out of them. There are parallel guides, for instance, that help with repeat cuts. I have rail and normal dogs to use in my Paulk inspired workbench for right angle cuts. Even with simpler "cut to the mark" use i like to use it. I noticed that the size of my marks was a limitation so I went to a 0.5mm pencil. Good luck on your project.

I also think there is a lot to be said for doing things the way you are comfortable with and works for you. We are fortunate to have a lot of tools available to us (for a price) but I don't normally think I need the latest and greatest. When I got rid of the extended rip capacity of my table saw I got a track saw and was surprised with how well it worked. But if you have a setup with a circular saw you like, it can certainly work.

Jim