Professional Finish on Kitchen Cabinets

[Tim Booher]

All,

I'm trying to figure out how to get a smooth, professional painted finish on my kitchen cabinets. I have HVLP guns (Husky Gravity Feed Composite HVLP Spray Gun and PORTER-CABLE PSH1 Gravity Feed Spray Gun) and an air compressor that can deliver 4 CFM @ 90 PSI, 5 CFM @ 40 PSI. I just have hobby projects at home, but I want to get the most professional finish I can.

I sprayed primer on a set of cabinets I made, but the paint came out super slow with larger droplets. I tried to experiment with thinning it down, but have learned I could do much better with that.

Is it just not smart to try and use my air compressor/HVLP gun? I could use an airless setup or something like the Wagner Spraytech 0529010 FLEXiO 590 Handheld HVLP Paint Sprayer. I'm also thinking about getting something like the FUJI Spray Semi-Pro 2 Bottom Feed HVLP System, but I really would like to be able to use my air compressor.

I would love any thoughts on what system I should be using so I can read up and try to perfect my technique.

Tim

[Jim Becker]

It's the gun, IMHO. To spray the products that are most desirable to use for the work you want to do, you need a gun that can be setup to optimally atomize and deliver the finish to the workpiece. Many of the products that are safe to spray (waterborne products) have higher viscosities and inexpensive gravity guns just can't handle them. And you cannot thin these finishes much without degrading them. I "got away" with a relatively inexpensive Wagner HPLV conversion gun for a long time, but my results got a whole lot better when I invested in a better gun about a year and a half ago on the recommendation of John T here at SMC. The setup I bought from Jeff Jewitt (Homestead Finishing) is a Qualspray pressure assisted HPLV gun with the 3M PPS cup system. It pretty much can spray "anything" because of the pressure assist and the spread of needle/nozzle sizes in the kit. Yes, it was a $385 investment, but it's completely changed the quality of my finishing in a noticeable way.

Here's a link to the current offer...you'll have to reassemble it in your browser since we don't permit directly links to EBAY

www. ebay. com/itm/254530270857?ViewItem=&item=254530270857

[John TenEyck]

What specific products do you want to spray? Typical paints sold to the consumer market are not meant for spray application. The gun Jim described will spray a really wide range of products, including high viscosty stuff better suited to manual application, but it does even better when you use products truly designed for spray application. The good news is there are several of them out there if you know where to look. Target Coatings and Lenmar make some very nice white water based coatings that can be tinted to any of Benjamin Moore's 3000+ colors. TC's you have to order from them, but Lenmar Duralaq and MegaVar are available at BM. They all have a viscosity in the 100 seconds #4 Ford cup range, which is a lot lower than the 500+ seconds of Sherwin Williams' ProClassic or BM's Advance. While you would still be better off getting a pressure assisted gun, it is possible to spray the TC and Lenmar products if you add around 3 - 4% of BM's Extender and a similar quantity of water, using a 1.8 to 2.2 mm N/N set on a gravity feed gun.

You didn't mention what primer you are using, but they are often just like the topcoat, too thick for spray application in an HVLP gun. The good news is BIN pigmented white shellac primer sprays great through even a gravity feed HVLP gun, same thing for Lenmar's Undercoater primer.

Pros often use airless or air assisted airless units. The good ones cost dearly but do a great job. The cheaper consumer oriented units are best suited for decks and garage doors. All of them are measured in gallons/minute for how fast they spray. Imagine trying to do a high end finish with a gun that's pumping out a quart or more a minute. You better be really good and most of us aren't. I recommend you stay away from airless systems for fine furniture and cabinet work.

You should get a cheap plastic #4 Ford viscosity cup and measure and adjust the viscosity of anything you want to use to match the type of gun and N/N size you have.

John

[Tim Booher]

This is super helpful. I don't mind making an investment, but I want to be able to make a nice, smooth painted finish on a set of cabinets.

I'm building a built-in alcoves for my mudroom and several built-in bookshelves and cabinets. Just FYI, I got three estimates to build 5 alcoves and a mudroom bench about 8ft long. The cheapest was $6,500 and the most expensive was 12,500. At those prices, I wanted to try to do the work and match the finish myself, but one of the carpenters said I would never get his finish without a professional negative-pressure spray booth. I've built a set of kitchen cabinets before, but painted on the finish and I'm up for the challenge of raising my game, but my first experiment in spraying was a failure with lots of orange peel and no real atomization from my Porter Cable HVLP gun.

I have two decisions: the gun/rig/tool setup and the paint. I really don't have strong preferences on either. I would like to use my existing air compressor if possible and I also would like to have easy cleanup and low toxicity if possible. I also don't have a dedicated spray booth, but I'm willing to build one if that is necessary. It sounds like I need to look into Target Coatings and Lenmar and also at the Homestead Finishing gun. Would that be the best route to go? If so where could I find Target Coatings and Lenmar? I live right outside New York City. I see that I can buy online.

From my research, it seems like I would want something like: https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...-tint-lacquer/

So primer: EMTECH HSF5000 WB Primer/Surfacer/Filler
Paint: EMTECH EM6500 WB Bright White / Custom Tint Lacquer Benjamin Moore (TM) Simply White OC-117

If so, I would need to find the right primer and get the right gun/setup.

I'm only 30 minutes from the headquarters of Target Coatings, Inc. In a normal world, I would drive there and get some advice. Their website was confusing. Any links appreciated.

To be specific, I would like to be able to take my paint grade 3/4 plywood cabinet and match the quality of finish on this:

https://www.restorationhardware.com/...yId=cat1601018

Thanks again very much for your help.

[Jim Becker]

Target may or may not have curbside pickup at the present time--you'll have to contact them directly about that. Be sure you get on their mailing list so you can use the frequent discount codes which materially lower the cost.

The combination of the HSF5000 and the EM6500 will give you an excellent finish if applied properly. You can also consider adding the crosslinker to provide additional chemical durability in a kitchen type environment. And be sure you practice with the product before you start spraying it on your real project! You need to get your gun zeroed in for the product and the only way to do that is to spray some finish! That holds true no matter what you choose to use, be it Target, be it Lenmar, whatever. It's a "best practice". Once you've used a product for awhile, you'll know how to setup and will only need a quick test spray on paper/cardboard before proceeding, but "new to you products' require a little more practice. DAKHIKT!

[John TenEyck]

If the cheapest quote you got was $6500 then you can afford to buy some nice equipment if you want to do it yourself. Don't be cheap, get a bigger compressor and the Qaulspray gun, or quality turbine rig. Going ultra cheap is never going to give you a factory finish, especially if you don't have much experience spraying. Even with good equipment there still is a rather large learning curve.

If you stick to WB products you don't need a fancy spray booth, but you do need one just to keep the overspray, dust, and bugs off your freshly sprayed work. You can get buy with nothing more than plastic drapped from the floor joists and a box fan to draw air across the work and out the door or window. This is one area where you can go cheap - as long as you stick to waterborne products.

Get some reasonably good spray equipment - and practice.

John

[Tim Booher]

Do I really need a new compressor or can I learn and go slower with the one I have?

Tim

If the cheapest quote you got was $6500 then you can afford to buy some nice equipment if you want to do it yourself. Don't be cheap, get a bigger compressor and the Qaulspray gun, or quality turbine rig. Going ultra cheap is never going to give you a factory finish, especially if you don't have much experience spraying. Even with good equipment there still is a rather large learning curve.

If you stick to WB products you don't need a fancy spray booth, but you do need one just to keep the overspray, dust, and bugs off your freshly sprayed work. You can get buy with nothing more than plastic drapped from the floor joists and a box fan to draw air across the work and out the door or window. This is one area where you can go cheap - as long as you stick to waterborne products.

Get some reasonably good spray equipment - and practice.

John

[Jim Becker]

Need? Maybe not. Larger compressors do have the advantage that they run less when you are using an air-intensive process like spraying finish, however. If you have something larger than a pancake, you certainly can see what happens before you move up in compressor. So the specific answer is elusive because "it depends"...

[John TenEyck]

Do I really need a new compressor or can I learn and go slower with the one I have?

Tim

No, but it's going to be a lot easier if you do. You could buy the LVLP version of the Qualspray gun Jim referenced. It will work with 4 cfm compressors. However, you are going to kill that compressor if you plan to do much spraying and dealing with water in the air will likely be a greater challenge. A larger one with higher output and a larger receiver will be able to deal with water easier, allow you to use the HVLP gun, cycle less during a spray session, and last a lot longer. I paid $300 for a used 60 gal compressor with 10 cfm output. I've been using it for 10 years now with zero issues. Seems like a bargain to me.

Also, the LVLP gun can't produce as wide a fan as the HVLP version driven by a larger compressor. What that means is on large surfaces it's going to take more passes to get it covered and that increases the risk of defects. You can compensate to some degree with good airflow to remove any overspray, good technique to lay down uniform passes, and adding Extender so that the passes flow out into a continuous film. If you only want to spray face frames the LVLP gun with the small compressor will do quite well. But if you want to spray cabinets it's going to be a lot easier with the HVLP gun, it's just better suited for that work. Pro painters would scoff at even that; they'd be using an air assisted airless and doing 5 cabinets for every one I can spray at equal quality. But at least I can get the same quality. Bigger is not always better but there often is a minimum below which it's very difficult to do good work. You can go really low end spraying clearcoats because they have low viscosity, but once you start talking paint the higher viscosities demand larger guns with more airflow in order to get fine atomization and a uniform finish. And unlike clearcoats paint shows every defect making the requirement for uniformity even higher.

John

[Jared Sankovich]

What specific products do you want to spray? Typical paints sold to the consumer market are not meant for spray application. The gun Jim described will spray a really wide range of products, including high viscosty stuff better suited to manual application, but it does even better when you use products truly designed for spray application. The good news is there are several of them out there if you know where to look. Target Coatings and Lenmar make some very nice white water based coatings that can be tinted to any of Benjamin Moore's 3000+ colors. TC's you have to order from them, but Lenmar Duralaq and MegaVar are available at BM. They all have a viscosity in the 100 seconds #4 Ford cup range, which is a lot lower than the 500+ seconds of Sherwin Williams' ProClassic or BM's Advance. While you would still be better off getting a pressure assisted gun, it is possible to spray the TC and Lenmar products if you add around 3 - 4% of BM's Extender and a similar quantity of water, using a 1.8 to 2.2 mm N/N set on a gravity feed gun.

You didn't mention what primer you are using, but they are often just like the topcoat, too thick for spray application in an HVLP gun. The good news is BIN pigmented white shellac primer sprays great through even a gravity feed HVLP gun, same thing for Lenmar's Undercoater primer.

Pros often use airless or air assisted airless units. The good ones cost dearly but do a great job. The cheaper consumer oriented units are best suited for decks and garage doors. All of them are measured in gallons/minute for how fast they spray. Imagine trying to do a high end finish with a gun that's pumping out a quart or more a minute. You better be really good and most of us aren't. I recommend you stay away from airless systems for fine furniture and cabinet work.

You should get a cheap plastic #4 Ford viscosity cup and measure and adjust the viscosity of anything you want to use to match the type of gun and N/N size you have.

John

I find BIN severely lacking as a sprayed primer, it consistently clogs a 190 micron filter/ strainer in my experience.

I also strongly dislike advance based on cure/dry times but is sprays well, and is readily available and in stock at any BM.

OP, personally a 4 or 5 stage turbine setup will do all you want. While not cheap, neither is time lost or product wasted.

I just happen to be spraying advance right now (there is a hand paint as well as spray requirement) spraying with a 4 stage Fuji. It sprays and lays down well, though as I mentioned cure time is abysmal.
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[Jim Becker]

BM Advance is an emulsified Alkyd finish with a water carrier. While the water "goes away" relatively quickly, the essentially oil based finish needs a whole lot more time to cure. The upside is that it's a pretty durable product and my local BM franchise dealer said that he has many pro painters that like it for cabinets, especially in renovation situations where they really can't spray safely because stuff is already installed.

[Tim Booher]

So I'm debating between a new compressor -- maybe one that requires a significant rewire (60 gallon, 22 amp) or buying a turbine setup like a fuji spray.

What do folks think about the Fuji 2203G Semi-PRO 2 ?

https://www.amazon.com/Fuji-2203G-Semi-PRO-Gravity-System/

Based on research, I should at least get a three stage system to be able to spray latex:

Something like the mini-mite: Fuji 2803-T75G Mini-Mite 3 PLATINUM - T75G Gravity HVLP Spray System

I had a terrible experience yesterday. I was trying to finish some plywood and I primed by hand with Kilz3 Premium primer. After letting it dry, I sanded with 220 grit with my random orbital sander. The _whole sheet_ of paint peeled off in a thick, rubbery mess. I showed this to a professional painter and he said "Primer shouldn't do that" take the can back. However, I would like to learn what I did wrong.

Tim

[John TenEyck]

Which BIN primer are you referring to? The one I use is shellac based: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsser-...0901/100398381 I've never had a problem with it clogging the integral 200 micron filter on the PPS cup I use. But if you don't like it try the Duralac Undercoater; it sprays great and is WB so clean up is super easy.

BM Advance is slow to cure, no doubt about it. But it's really tough after if finally does cure and it's available in 3000+ colors. And it will dry a lot quicker if you thin it with 3 - 4% water so that you can apply thinner coats. Still takes a long time to cure though. Duralaq, on the other hand, is dry in less than an hour and ready for lite duty in a day or two. Different animals.

Have you ever used MegaVar? Interested in your review if you have.

John

[John TenEyck]

Kilz is lousy stuff in my experience. Surprising it peeled off though, but that makes me wonder how thick you applied it. Paint primers are meant to seal the wood and help give you a smooth surface for the paint that follows. You don't want them to be any thicker than necessary to do that. That's why I like primers that sand easily after they dry, like BIN Shellac based primer and Duralaq Undercoater for spraying, and Sherwin Williams Wall and Wood primer for brush application. All dry quickly and sand easily w/o clogging the sandpaper so you can end up with just enough to seal and smooth the wood surface.

John

[Jared Sankovich]

Which BIN primer are you referring to? The one I use is shellac based: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsser-...0901/100398381 I've never had a problem with it clogging the integral 200 micron filter on the PPS cup I use. But if you don't like it try the Duralac Undercoater; it sprays great and is WB so clean up is super easy.

BM Advance is slow to cure, no doubt about it. But it's really tough after if finally does cure and it's available in 3000+ colors. And it will dry a lot quicker if you thin it with 3 - 4% water so that you can apply thinner coats. Still takes a long time to cure though. Duralaq, on the other hand, is dry in less than an hour and ready for lite duty in a day or two. Different animals.

Have you ever used MegaVar? Interested in your review if you have.

John

I've only used the shellac BIN. I've tried a few times but gave up using it.

I mostly just spray duralaq Nitrocellulose undercoater even if I'm using a WB topcoat. I wouldn't mind trying the WB version, but the solvent version is bulletproof.

I agree on the durability of fully cured advance, it's great once cured. I just dont like month or so to get there.

Haven't used MegaVar, I have stayed mostly with ultralaq.