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Thread: Climate & Glue

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    SoCal
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    564
    Ken - maybe one of these days. What is the open/working time for the hot stuff? I'm thinking it is less than 5 minutes at 70° and reasonable humidity.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    I've used TB II Extend and found that the time extension was minimal. I really think that it is the humidity difference. 10 - 15% RH plays havoc with PVA glues. Only Epoxy will operate at > 90° and still provide a reasonable open time. I'll just have to do the mass laminations at night when the temps are down and the humidity is up.
    I typically use Titebond 1, although I sometimes have trouble with it in the winter here. When it gets below 0F outside, the indoor humidity in the shop can get so low that thin layers of glue can dry before I get joints together. I find that I need to work quickly and put the glue on in thick beads rather than spread it out. It seems to spread well enough when the joints are put together. Liquid hide glue also is a good alternative if I have a complex glue up.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    Ken - maybe one of these days. What is the open/working time for the hot stuff? I'm thinking it is less than 5 minutes at 70° and reasonable humidity.
    Curt,

    Hot hide glue has a very short open time, you can do rub joints. There are ways to extend that time if needed but mostly it is just learning how to assemble the project so there is little or no need for clamps. Remember the "old guys" didn't have racks of clamps to work with.

    ken

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    Ken - maybe one of these days. What is the open/working time for the hot stuff? I'm thinking it is less than 5 minutes at 70° and reasonable humidity.
    I use 192 hide glue and you only get about 5 minutes or so under normal conditions. That sounds like a ridiculously short amount of time compared to a PVA glue. However, you don’t have the same kind of glue spillage or squeeze out issues. With a PVA glue you generally want to avoid glue all over the place because it’s a pain to clean up and it grossly affects finish. But hide glue cleans up very easily and cleanly and doesn’t affect finish much. So with a PVA glue you try and get the right amount in the right spot, but with hide glue you just slather it on the joint as fast as you can and not really worry too much about it getting all over the place because once it starts to firm up you can just peel the excess right off cleanly. Or you can take it off with a warm wet cloth if it sets up too much. So although you have a very short working time, you can also apply the glue to your work considerably faster without fear.

    This all said, you can add salt to extend the working time. Sometimes I add a small non-measured amount just to give me a little more time – like insurance. I have also carefully measured out 15% by weight (supposedly this is as high as you are supposed to go, if you believe everything you read) just to see what would happen and I easily had 30 minutes of working time.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,698
    Sometimes we get what we ask for. I’ve been around long enough to remember when it was HHG or white glue. People complained about HHG being messy and too fast. White glue was too slow. You could also see poorly fitted joints with a glue line with white glue. The industry listened. Quicker set up to get it out of the clamps faster a little color to help with glue lines. I have pieces in my home that are now 50 years old at least. White glue or HHG. Haven’t had a glue failure yet on those things. I do think that the white glue of the past had a little more open time. I did work in the desert for many years too. Just don’t stress yourself by building for complicated glue ups and things will be fine.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
    I use 192 hide glue and you only get about 5 minutes or so under normal conditions. That sounds like a ridiculously short amount of time compared to a PVA glue. However, you don’t have the same kind of glue spillage or squeeze out issues. With a PVA glue you generally want to avoid glue all over the place because it’s a pain to clean up and it grossly affects finish. But hide glue cleans up very easily and cleanly and doesn’t affect finish much. So with a PVA glue you try and get the right amount in the right spot, but with hide glue you just slather it on the joint as fast as you can and not really worry too much about it getting all over the place because once it starts to firm up you can just peel the excess right off cleanly. Or you can take it off with a warm wet cloth if it sets up too much. So although you have a very short working time, you can also apply the glue to your work considerably faster without fear.

    This all said, you can add salt to extend the working time. Sometimes I add a small non-measured amount just to give me a little more time – like insurance. I have also carefully measured out 15% by weight (supposedly this is as high as you are supposed to go, if you believe everything you read) just to see what would happen and I easily had 30 minutes of working time.
    Since my current problem is gluing up 7' x 4.25" sticks for a benchtop, I don't see me getting enough glue on in time - much less rubbing. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get to doing that shortly while we still have cool nights. There is also the worry about spills on a benchtop. I routinely dump my coffee where it is not supposed to be - which is why I drofted away from the ligquid stuff for the top.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    Since my current problem is gluing up 7' x 4.25" sticks for a benchtop, I don't see me getting enough glue on in time - much less rubbing. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get to doing that shortly while we still have cool nights. There is also the worry about spills on a benchtop. I routinely dump my coffee where it is not supposed to be - which is why I drofted away from the ligquid stuff for the top.
    Curt,

    I just finished a big glue up, not as big as your workbench slab but pretty big. I've also made a few work bench slabs using hot hide glue here in the desert of Arizona as well as a couple using one of the Tite Bonds. The hot hide glue slabs were a lot less stressful for several reasons. One of the big ones is the slats do not move around once the glue sets.

    To do a big glue up I will coat each surface with hot water with a quick wipe to dry just before applying glue with a big hot hide glue brush (Tools for Working Wood sells them). Coat both sides with a heavy hand place them together and in alignment when they feel solid put on however many clamps that will make you comfortable and walk away. After a bit clean up the excess glue. Repeat until you run out of slats or it looks like a slab.

    As always with anything wood, YMMV.

    ken

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Clayton , North Carolina
    Posts
    136
    I have been switching to Old Brown Glue (oldbrownglue.com) more and more in my old age because of the long open time. I can't seem to assemble things fast enough these days for Titebond. Takes longer to dry but I find I'm not in that much of a hurry any more so I usually let things dry overnight.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    Since my current problem is gluing up 7' x 4.25" sticks for a benchtop, I don't see me getting enough glue on in time - much less rubbing. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get to doing that shortly while we still have cool nights. There is also the worry about spills on a benchtop. I routinely dump my coffee where it is not supposed to be - which is why I drofted away from the ligquid stuff for the top.

    I just built a split-top roubo and used Elmer's Glue All for everything. It's plenty strong and has a very long open time, way longer than TB3. You might buy a bottle and experiment with it to see how it does in the low humidity, but it surely will do better than TB3. I use it for all indoor stuff when I don't use hide glue. It is not as resistant to water + heat as TB3, but much more resistant than hide glue. That said, I honestly don't think spilling coffee on a bench laminated with hide glue is going to be a problem. It's not THAT easy to undo hide glue, and even if the coffee did temporarily weaken it, as soon as it cooled down it would be good as new (and your coffee isn't going to penetrate more than an eighth of an inch max anyway). I think the bigger issue with laminating the top with hide glue is that hide glue is rather brittle and I could potentially see an issue where banging shock waves through it all day long could potentially cause fracturing. I did briefly consider hide glue for the top lamination before abandoning it for Glue All as a safe bet.

  10. #25
    Elmers White Glue had a good run, in a lot of shops. But it is the "creepiest" of all glues. Joints shift. I don't know if
    that is permanent ,or if after "full cure" it settles down.

  11. #26
    I don't know if
    that is permanent ,or if after "full cure" it settles down.[/QUOTE]
    I remember now, after a few days the white glue does not move anymore

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    SoCal
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    564
    Had a contractor buddy, also a very fine woodworker, whose ultimate expression of assembly disgust was to exclaim that it had been put together with Elmer's Glue-All.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    SoCal
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    564
    Well, maybe not so fast. It is 97°F with 17% RH humidity, so I ran a little test. Took some Titebond LHG and set some on scrap. 2 minutes later I used that to coat a 2nd piece by rubbing them together. I let them sit for 2 minutes and then put together to test for tack and then set apart and open. I continued this for 10 minutes by which time it was evident the glue was getting impatient. I then left the 2 pieces together (not clamped). I could still adjust the parts at 15 minutes - at which point I clamped them. So, if they are glued in the morning, a gallon of OBG or TB may be in my future.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    The old pueblo in el norte.
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    325
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    Well, maybe not so fast. It is 97°F with 17% RH humidity, so I ran a little test. Took some Titebond LHG and set some on scrap. 2 minutes later I used that to coat a 2nd piece by rubbing them together. I let them sit for 2 minutes and then put together to test for tack and then set apart and open. I continued this for 10 minutes by which time it was evident the glue was getting impatient. I then left the 2 pieces together (not clamped). I could still adjust the parts at 15 minutes - at which point I clamped them. So, if they are glued in the morning, a gallon of OBG or TB may be in my future.
    Got portable swamp cooler? It can (in our climates) make a pretty major difference in a short(ish) amount of time

    ~mike

    scope creep

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by mike stenson View Post
    Got portable swamp cooler? It can (in our climates) make a pretty major difference in a short(ish) amount of time

    Mike,

    It works until Monsoon season .

    The difference is known as wet bulb temp or the maximum cooling by evaporation. Back in the day I could ride my motorcycle across Death Valley in the Summer and would get the giggles because I could feel the heat boiling around me (115F or above) but I would be sitting in a pocket of cold air (60F to 70F) using nothing but proper clothing, a little water, and good technique. Tank to tank in comfort, I put many miles on the motorcycle that way. It didn't work as well when I would ride to Lafayette for some Gumbo but did work some even then.

    ken

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