Getting PMV-11 Sharp?

[Jim Koepke]

The PM-v11 blades in my spokeshave and shooting plane from Lee Valley are a bit more work but sharpen quite fine on my Arkansas stones.

They can shave hair, slice paper or pull a fine shaving off of softwood end grain.

Who could ask for anything more?

Sharp PM-v11 Blade.jpg

This was a surprise. Using the brush to sweep away some dust off the sole cut some of the bristles.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Mike, your secondary bevel is very different from the primary bevel, the primary bevel becomes redundant. My planes are 25 degrees, sometimes I use a micro bevel of 1-2 degrees, mostly 01 some D2 and one A2. Thick bevel down blades are huge work without hollow grinding, that alone hinders progress. Carpenter steel, Elmax etc. get sharp and keep it but not as sharp as 01. Nothing gets as sharp and keeps it as long as my Barr chisels, 01, hand tempered.
Modern steels are more work, I have grown to dislike them. They all need frequent sharpening for optimum results, I prefer to sharpen 01 more easily a bit more often. For rough work modern steels have their use but I finish with 01.
So don't expect too much of modern steels and you won't be disappointed.

William,

I couldn't agree more, especially the "...all need frequent sharpening..." part. So the modern steels will let you work longer with an inferior cutter, big whoop.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

William,

I couldn't agree more, especially the "...all need frequent sharpening..." part. So the modern steels will let you work longer with an inferior cutter, big whoop.

ken

Ken, don't lump all "modern steel" into the same category. Steels like A2 and D2 have large carbides. Powder Metal (PM) steels have the finest grain around, probably finer than O1. PM-V11 gets as sharp, or sharper than O1. And holds the edge 4x as long. That is fact. Sharpening PM-V11 is as quick as O1 when you do it right. I do it all the time

It may be different for those working with softer timbers, but when you work with hard and abrasive woods, then the durability of these blades is appreciated.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

"Powder Metal (PM) steels have the finest grain around, probably finer than O1."

Is this what the marketing department says, or is there real documentation.

" PM-V11 gets as sharp, or sharper than O1. And holds the edge 4x as long. That is fact."

Documentation?

When I try to duplicate your tests, my chisels always come out better, by a lot.

[John Keeton]

Warren, this may be relevant -

http://pm-v11.com/

[Derek Cohen]

When I try to duplicate your tests, my chisels always come out better, by a lot.

Documentation of your results, Warren?

As for PM-V11 test results of surface and longevity, ask David Weaver. He posted them on WoodCentral. You know this, so why ask the question?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

That's hilarious.

It's like one of those 1970's Kung Fu movies where just looking at a sword shaved off your eyebrows.

[Tony Zaffuto]

"Powder Metal (PM) steels have the finest grain around, probably finer than O1."

Is this what the marketing department says, or is there real documentation.

" PM-V11 gets as sharp, or sharper than O1. And holds the edge 4x as long. That is fact."

Documentation?

When I try to duplicate your tests, my chisels always come out better, by a lot.

Warren,

I live and have my manufacturing plant in DuBois, PA. If you wish to visit a powder metal part manufacturing plant when Covid19 wanes, let me know. 70 to 75% of my output goes into new automobiles, and the only stuff for tools are parts I make go to Black & Decker/Dewalt.

The Lee Valley process is proprietary, however the material can be determined. But knowing the material does not mean a plant can make the parts, however, as how it is compacted and then sintered (baked) determines the output (much as what you said earlier in this thread). Do a bit of reading about how CPM and carbide materials are made and you'll begin to get a bit of background. Kennametal, among a number of other carbide cutter manufacturers, used to produce the majority of their output in Latrobe, PA, though that ended in the early 90's.

Rob Lee and I have spoken through the years and he suggested that I might want to test some of his products: I declined as more validity would accrue through woodworkers that know far more than I. However, I have purchased a number of LV tools that use the PMV-11 material (several plane blades and a chisel) and the performance is superb.

T.Z.

[Warren Mickley]

Documentation of your results, Warren?

As for PM-V11 test results of surface and longevity, ask David Weaver. He posted them on WoodCentral. You know this, so why ask the question?

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Weaver's results were between 8 and 30 percent longer for pmv11 than O1. It was not the "4X as long" that you claimed earlier today. I did one of David's tests using a 1915 plane iron; I quit when I had bested his pmv11 longevity. I reported this on Woodcentral and you, Derek, responded to my post, so I assume you read it.

[Mike Allen1010]

Veritas specs their PMV-11quite hard.

Do you hollow grind the bevel?

Yes Jim I hollow ground the primary bevel at 25° on an 8 inch diameter wheel. Based on some of the very helpful feedback here, I'm thinking I will re-grind the primary bevel and change from a my current 35° secondary bevel angle to approximately a 30° bevel angle or something slightly less. I'm hearing that based on the grain structure of PMV 11 steel it's more likely than 01 to be able to maintain a sharp edge at at the slower secondary bevel angle.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for help with getting PMV irons sharp. I'm especially grateful that people with real knowledge and expertise in this area like Warren, Derek and Tony took the time to share their insights and suggestions. My primary takeaways are:

* Based on the fundamental metallurgy of PMV and test results from Lee Valley, for things like sharpness, edge durability etc. and the practical experience of folks here on SMC, seems to me PMV has real potential to provide a sharp, durable edge and I just need to do a better job of figuring out how to achieve that.

* I do hollow ground primary bevel on 8 inch diameter abrasive wheel (sorry don't know the specific type/characteristics – it's the gray one). I'm going to change my secondary bevel angle from 35° to 30°.

* I'm going to experiment with using a "harder" final finishing Waterstone and strapping final wire edge on maple with green compound. I currently use series of three Shapton Pro Waterstone's - yellow, purple and tan. I can't remember the specific grits but I think the final is something like 30,000. It is noticeably "soft ". I think I have a SypderCo finishing stone that's a lot harder.

I very much appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions. To me this thread is a great example of the benefits of the CM SMC community – credible, fact based feedback from experts with hands-on experience. I'm grateful!

I'll let you know if I make any progress.

Cheers, Mike

[Thomas Crawford]

Anecdotal evidence from me:

I have the bevel up jointer and jack planes from Veritas. One PM-V11 and one A2 blade. I was stupid and tried to put a radius on them and jacked them all up so I had to take them both to the grinder and start from scratch. I just have one of the cheap 2-speed grinders from woodcraft they used to sell with a blue norton 50 grit wheel.

I ground them both to ~30 degrees on the grinder, then used 1000 - 4000 - 8000 grit norton waterstones plus leather strop (micro-bevel 33ish). I can say it took half the effort and time to do the PM-V11 vs the A2. Both take as thin of shavings as you would want. I'm going to order a couple more PM-V11 and throw the A2 in storage.

[ken hatch]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for help with getting PMV irons sharp. I'm especially grateful that people with real knowledge and expertise in this area like Warren, Derek and Tony took the time to share their insights and suggestions. My primary takeaways are:

* Based on the fundamental metallurgy of PMV and test results from Lee Valley, for things like sharpness, edge durability etc. and the practical experience of folks here on SMC, seems to me PMV has real potential to provide a sharp, durable edge and I just need to do a better job of figuring out how to achieve that.

* I do hollow ground primary bevel on 8 inch diameter abrasive wheel (sorry don't know the specific type/characteristics – it's the gray one). I'm going to change my secondary bevel angle from 35° to 30°.

* I'm going to experiment with using a "harder" final finishing Waterstone and strapping final wire edge on maple with green compound. I currently use series of three Shapton Pro Waterstone's - yellow, purple and tan. I can't remember the specific grits but I think the final is something like 30,000. It is noticeably "soft ". I think I have a SypderCo finishing stone that's a lot harder.

I very much appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions. To me this thread is a great example of the benefits of the CM SMC community – credible, fact based feedback from experts with hands-on experience. I'm grateful!

I'll let you know if I make any progress.

Cheers, Mike

Mike,

Please do. I've a number of PM-11 cutters and chisels in my shop that are gathering dust mostly because I couldn't see any advantage over my Japanese #1 white paper chisels or the laminated blue paper plane cutters.

ken

[Will Blick]

Its very tricky matching a metal type to the ideal stone. Sure any will work, but stones characteristics really do work much better with a given metal type. I find the Shapton HR series stones work GREAT with PMV-11. On the LV web site, they suggest another brand which they sell...its possible they work well also. If someone is doing low volume, sandpaper, or diamond paste would also do well, assuming good technique... same true with stones... if that stone is not flat, u wont maximize sharpness, so always check with a good straight edge.

[les winter]

I use a medium India and a Dan's Hard Black Arkansas followed by a hard leather strop with the green stuff. My tools include A2 and PMV11 blades and chisels. I have used water stones in the past.

My input is that if you keep your micro bevels very narrow, the oil stone and strop combination works just fine. Not fast, but fine. I prefer raising a significant burr, so I probably get only 3-4 honings before I need to grind a new hollow. I find PMV11 easier to sharpen than A2 particularly with regard to removing the burr. Both get very sharp.