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Thread: Getting PMV-11 Sharp?

  1. #1
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    Getting PMV-11 Sharp?

    I would appreciate any help/suggestions about how to get PMV-11 chisels/plane blades sharp.

    I don't know anything about types of steel, metallurgy etc., but I would like to think I have some appreciation for sharp edge tools. I've always been a little bit obsessive about getting the sharpest possible edge on chisels, plane blades etc., However I have no great analytical method for determining sharpness – for me I go by dragging my finger over the cutting edge and the efficacy of the cutting action working wood tells the tale.

    For reference the primary angle on both chisels and plane blades is 25°. Secondary bevel angle for plane blades is 35° and for chisels 30°. I'm not exactly sure why two different secondary bevel angles, just the current state-of-the-art in my never ending chase for sharp.

    Over the last 30 years I've gone through more sets of sharpening stones than I can remember. Currently I use three grades of Shapton Pro water stones and occasionally strop with green compound, one straight grain maple, the other leather, shiny side up.

    I'm able to get 01 steel and Japanese edge tools more than sharp enough to satisfy me right off the stones. My frustration is my PMV edge tools never feel as sharp, I think regardless of whether I strop or not. The PMV tools work fine and seem to hold their edge for a long time, but when I'm looking for that final feathery thin final shaving from a finish plane on a show surface, feels like I'm not 100% there. Maybe my perception is off and given the imprecise nature of determining sharpness, maybe this is all in my head. Regardless, I would very much appreciate any advice and suggestions for my fellow Creekers about how you get optimal sharpness from your PMV tools. Thanks in advance for your help!

    Best, Mike

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    I would appreciate any help/suggestions about how to get PMV-11 chisels/plane blades sharp. ...
    David Weaver, on another forum, recently reported experiments with PM-V11. He found he could get it satisfactorily sharp with a Washita and a leather strop. I don't remember exactly what he did and if it differed from his HCS routine, but he was satisfied with the result and impressed with the wear resistance.

    I'd imagine a little more work than you're used to would get you where you want to be. Good luck.

  3. #3
    Mike,

    Thought it was just me. Maybe not. Sorry I can't help.

    ken

  4. #4
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    Mike, I looked into this in the past. PMV11 steel is harder than O1 or vintage carbon steel. As a consequence it requires the right sharpening media and technique to get the keenest edge. An internet search will reveal plenty of information.

  5. #5
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    Veritas specs their PMV-11quite hard.

    Do you hollow grind the bevel?

  6. #6
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    One thing I like about PM-v11 is that I sharpen it just like anything else. I use DMT diamond stones up to about 8000 grit among other things.
    Last edited by glenn bradley; 05-08-2020 at 12:33 AM.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Bassett View Post
    David Weaver, on another forum, ...
    I went searching to see if I could pull a useful quote or two and found I was wrong about when and may have been wrong about the Washita. This was going on last summer and for many of his experiments he was sharpening with diamond grit (5um and 1um at different times). Certainly diamond in that range works (I don't see why it has to be loose, there are PSA sheets and the plates of course too.) The more aggressive abrasives in synthetic, e.g. Japanese water stones and Crystolon & India oil stones, should also work.

    I still think novaculite should work on PM-V11, just more slowly, and thought David reached that conclusion too. But, so far, all I find is vague statements, some I read to say not so good and others saying it works fine with his Washita. There's probably something in his experiments and rambling descriptions that's conclusive and hopefully somebody remembers! Sadly, I clearly don't.

    Still, good luck.

  8. #8
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    I hollow grind on a CBN 180 grit wheel, then medium and ultra-fine Spyderco stones. As I am a woodworker and not a sharpening hobbyist, sometimes I forget the material in what I am sharpening, so yes, on ocassion, I have used a Washita, then strop to sharpen.

    Tool steels are O1, PMV-11 and a few A2 (dislike it, but I ain't going to toss it). The vintage stuff I have I won't speculate on composition. As I said I ain't a sharpening hobbyist and sharpen tools when needed and as quickly as I can.
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael Herrera View Post
    Mike, I looked into this in the past. PMV11 steel is harder than O1 or vintage carbon steel. As a consequence it requires the right sharpening media and technique to get the keenest edge. An internet search will reveal plenty of information.
    I don't know where you looked, but pmv11 is harder than vintage steel only if you temper it less than you temper the other steels. O1 can be harder or softer than Lee Valley's pmv11 tools, depending on the temper. Japanese steel and cast steel are also capable of high hardness.

    Stainless steels like pmv11 are abrasion resistant. That is why they are harder to sharpen, not because they are harder.

  10. #10
    I am not anywhere near a sharpening guru, but I do own a couple of PMV-11 blades. I just use a scary sharp board with sandpaper, which works for my limited needs. But, as to the discussion here I saw this from Fine Tools -
    Attached Images Attached Images

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  11. #11
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    The mystique of PMV11 has been interesting with so much guessing. It would be no problem to get the hardness of a blade. However, this is a bulk hardness and the hardness of the carbide in it are much higher.

    I often wish that I was still working and had access to the tools there such as hardness testing, light microscope, and a scanning electron microscope. With the SEM you could analyze the carbide and better understand the structure.

    Pretty amazing that I have not found this information yet.

  12. #12
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    I've got a replacement blade for both a single blade traditional (small) wooden smoother and a double blade wooden Jack plane. They're made from Carpenter XHP steel and hardened to the same spec as PMV-11.

    The most surprising aspect of these blades is how sharp they stay, even after heavy use.

    The small block plane was pressed into fitting duty with plywood panels.

    After final assembly, I prepared the blade for resharpening only to find it still sliced paper.

    I get better results with this steel than with very expensive Japanese irons, without the involved prep or dedicated water stones.

    As a long time adherent to O1 steel on Oil stones, I see these sintered steels as a game changer, well worth the trouble.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    I would appreciate any help/suggestions about how to get PMV-11 chisels/plane blades sharp.

    I don't know anything about types of steel, metallurgy etc., but I would like to think I have some appreciation for sharp edge tools. I've always been a little bit obsessive about getting the sharpest possible edge on chisels, plane blades etc., However I have no great analytical method for determining sharpness – for me I go by dragging my finger over the cutting edge and the efficacy of the cutting action working wood tells the tale.

    For reference the primary angle on both chisels and plane blades is 25°. Secondary bevel angle for plane blades is 35° and for chisels 30°. I'm not exactly sure why two different secondary bevel angles, just the current state-of-the-art in my never ending chase for sharp.

    Over the last 30 years I've gone through more sets of sharpening stones than I can remember. Currently I use three grades of Shapton Pro water stones and occasionally strop with green compound, one straight grain maple, the other leather, shiny side up.

    I'm able to get 01 steel and Japanese edge tools more than sharp enough to satisfy me right off the stones. My frustration is my PMV edge tools never feel as sharp, I think regardless of whether I strop or not. The PMV tools work fine and seem to hold their edge for a long time, but when I'm looking for that final feathery thin final shaving from a finish plane on a show surface, feels like I'm not 100% there. Maybe my perception is off and given the imprecise nature of determining sharpness, maybe this is all in my head. Regardless, I would very much appreciate any advice and suggestions for my fellow Creekers about how you get optimal sharpness from your PMV tools. Thanks in advance for your help!

    Best, Mike
    Mike, I use 30 degrees for all bench chisels and BD bench plane blades. These are hollow ground (as Tony does) on an 8" 180 grit CBN wheel, and then my first choice set of 1000 Pro Shapton and 6000/13000 Sigma. Wire off on green compound on hardwood. The edges are as sharp as any out there.



    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  14. #14
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    Not really sure why you are having issues with the V11. Shapton stones should be able to abrade it effectively enough. I wonder if there is some issue with retaining the wire edge? Very light forward passes, alternating bevel to back, raising the angle on the bevel side just a hair, is the way to thin and hopefully remove the wire edge. Sharpness, as gauged by my fingertip rubbing over the edge, increases noticeably after several rounds of this.

    Other than that I would double check the geometry, e.g. making sure there isn't something like a back bevel or persistent wear bevel. Make sure the secondary bevel is kept very small.

    I would say that I prefer very hard stones like oil stones, especially for the final step of sharpening. I have a set of Shaptons and they are good for big jobs but for normal sharpening I don't like the edges as much as those I get from oil stones. I think a lot of it has to do with the hardness, a translucent ark is like a piece of glass. The shaptons seem a bit rubbery in comparison, even though they are fairly hard compared to other synthetic waterstones. This is my experience with freehand sharpening at least, it may not apply if you use a guide. Anyways, for wear resistant steels like V11 I find a Spyderco ultrafine ceramic stone provides a similar feel to the arkansas stone and a gives nice edge.

  15. #15
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    Mike, your secondary bevel is very different from the primary bevel, the primary bevel becomes redundant. My planes are 25 degrees, sometimes I use a micro bevel of 1-2 degrees, mostly 01 some D2 and one A2. Thick bevel down blades are huge work without hollow grinding, that alone hinders progress. Carpenter steel, Elmax etc. get sharp and keep it but not as sharp as 01. Nothing gets as sharp and keeps it as long as my Barr chisels, 01, hand tempered.
    Modern steels are more work, I have grown to dislike them. They all need frequent sharpening for optimum results, I prefer to sharpen 01 more easily a bit more often. For rough work modern steels have their use but I finish with 01.
    So don't expect too much of modern steels and you won't be disappointed.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

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