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Thread: INCRA or Sawstop router lift or other? (PCS tablesaw shopping)

  1. #46
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    Yes, with all ww tools, its a slippery slope $. I doubt u can run the SS and Clearview on 30amps, the moment u pass a thick hard wood through the SS, u will trip the breaker.
    Interesting take on the amperage increasing without a filter. I admit I never tested this. I would have thought the filter acts as an additional load / resistance to the system, increasing amp draw. Has anyone ever tested this to confirm?

  2. #47
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    Without getting into specifics of fan curves, motor curves, motor types, etc. (which all matter in system design, static pressure drops, duct resistance, etc.) Cyclones are relatively basic motor and impeller, nothing complicated, although they also have a fan curve, which often is not published for most ww products.
    Regardless, as a general rule, when airflow encounters greater resistance, such as a clogged filter, energy consumption will increase...
    > A clogged filter causes those systems to use 15 percent more energy, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.
    A clogged filter is similar to adding load onto the system vs. a clean filter. Removing a filter would decrease the resistance on the system, reducing energy consumption.
    I hate to start WWIII on these forums, as I have seen it happen...
    Maybe someone can explain how this generally accepted premise is untrue in the application we are discussing here?

  3. #48
    Y'know... all my electrical load problems disappear if I'm able to change my Sawstop order from 3hp to 1.75. And after easily test cutting maple butcherblock on my buddies 1.75, the 3hp choice was more of a "what the heck".

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Blick View Post
    Regardless, as a general rule, when airflow encounters greater resistance, such as a clogged filter, energy consumption will increase...
    That is a common misconception but is absolutely not correct. The opposite is true. If you don't believe me or the mountains of supporting data that is readily available, then come over to my shop and have a look. I've got a collector with an amp meter on it. The more clogged the filter is, the lower the current.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph E Burns View Post
    Y'know... all my electrical load problems disappear if I'm able to change my Sawstop order from 3hp to 1.75. And after easily test cutting maple butcherblock on my buddies 1.75, the 3hp choice was more of a "what the heck".
    DON'T!

    The Clearview 1800 is on my wish list, but for the past 4 years, I've used a 1.5HP 110v DC and it has performed well. Well enough to the point, I question whether the CV1800 is more of a whim than a need.

    If you buy the 3HP SawStop and find it's an issue, I have a complete 1.75HP motor and controller than can scale you saw down. I'd be happy to do that, not that I have use for the 3HP motor, I already have one.

  6. #51
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    As I mentioned, I never tested this myself...
    so your tests prevail...
    The small Google search I did, suggested the opposite, including studies by the DoE, although, much of the reports were for HVAC systems. There must be something unique about a Dust Cyclone that defies this general premise....nonetheless very interesting. I am glad this was contributed now to the OP as this will probably influence his decision. When I return to my shop next month, I will run this test with my Laguna PFlux2 Cyclone as it has a large Hepa drum filter. I will report my findings.

  7. #52
    Is it that as you remove the filter the motor naturally compensates with higher flow and thus higher RPMs at essentially the same torque?

    I'm reading thru the Bill Pentz blog this morning, and then I've got to get out the garage and make chips. I'll call Oneida and see if they can point me to a blower matched to their 5" inlet cyclone. I'll hold off calling my Sawstop dealer and bumming them out with an order change. A problem I have using the Shaper Origin is that it goes slow, my mind wanders and I get distracted and then stop making chops.

    I'm okay replacing my old breaker box to add a circuit... just not now. I'll probably shoulder the work and that'll spin into a big time suck. My work is booked a year out and that campervan sits ignored.

  8. #53
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    Dont have time to get into motor / amp talk right now...
    but as for your decision cutting the SS down to 1.75
    u might want to ask around about that...
    much depends on what u are cutting.
    if you never plan to cut thick material, than fully agreed 1.75hp will suffice.
    but if you plant to cut hard woods, that are thick, say 2"+
    you might regret this decision.
    If you do go 1.75HP, use the thinnest kerf blades you can find to reduce the amount of cut load on the motor.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Blick View Post
    As I mentioned, I never tested this myself...
    so your tests prevail...
    The small Google search I did, suggested the opposite, including studies by the DoE, although, much of the reports were for HVAC systems. There must be something unique about a Dust Cyclone that defies this general premise....nonetheless very interesting. I am glad this was contributed now to the OP as this will probably influence his decision. When I return to my shop next month, I will run this test with my Laguna PFlux2 Cyclone as it has a large Hepa drum filter. I will report my findings.
    Any pump or blower that uses an impeller will behave in the same counter intuitive way; the more resistance to fluid flow, the less hard the motor works. Positive displacement pumps or compressors do not behave this way.

  10. #55
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    Interesting, thx for sharing.
    of course, like all fans and motors, their unique respective curves would demonstrate what you describe. Of course this data is rarely available for the cyclones we are discussing here as they are on the low end of the market, consumer and prosumer.
    But the premise of adding load while reducing energy draw will fall off the curve at some point, otherwise, our ww cyclones will fall into the category of perpetual energy machines

  11. #56

    Blower fans

    Talked to a local vendor today:

    "The blower will always spin at the same speed no matter the load applied (until we're over the HP of the motor and the breaker trips). As the static pressure changes the CFM and HP used also change based on the fan curve. Moving the vertical line left or right on the fan curve will show you the resultant values. As static pressure goes down the CFM goes up and so does the used HP and amp draw."

    So it's about the fan; see the attached PDF.

    Also the sales engineer commented that another non-intuitive thing is that a stronger horsepower motor used in the same exact fluidic circumstance (same fan, same CFM, same pressure, same!) as a smaller one will use less power. We didn't get into the why that is.

    More later about his suggestions.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  12. #57
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    You are getting good info...
    yes, its about the fan curve first, as it represents the load in a cyclone.
    However, as a working system, ultimately, its about the fan curve and the motor curve which can provide a curve for the working system. With more sophisticated systems, the working system curve is provided.

    Yes, single speed motors run at a fixed speed, till the load overwhelms it...then, u will either trip a breaker (if sized properly, which is not always the case), or potential over heat the motor which should trip an internal thermal breaker... if none of these safeties work, the motor can stall... then, the conductors feeding it will heat up, adding more load, which will eventually trip the breaker or melt the conductor

    A larger HP motor "can" use less energy for a given load output vs. a lower rated hp motor, assuming the load is in the sweet spot of the motors curve. The motor curve will show the load vs. the energy consumption, which represents the motors efficiency at different loads. At different loads, the efficiency can vary greatly based on the design of the motor. Motors running at max capacity will have often generate greater resistance in the windings, producing heat, thereby decreasing overall efficiency. Hence why systems are designed with all the components to work efficiently as as system.
    Not all motors are created equal, hence the huge variance in price.

    So how has all the added info effect your purchase decision?

  13. #58
    I'm leaning towards 220V SawStop and 110V dust collector.

    From Bob - Woodcraft Sawstop dealer: "The order is still a week or so out, so you can make up your mind later. I sell equal numbers of 1.75 and 3hp PCS, and both customers are happy. If I had full breaker box issues like you, I'd pick the 1.75 in a heartbeat and save the money. And we have the 5hp Clearvue Cyclone here at the school, they are nice but way overkill for a garage shop. I'd look at a 1.5hp Jet dust collector."

    From Aaron - Airpro: "Garage shop and 4" saw air port? I'd get a throwaway shop vac from Home Depot. If you really want a cyclone, then get this Cincinnati fan with a 1/2hp motor, sized 400 CFM for that saw."


    What I think: I'd be happy enough with 1.75 or 3hp saw. I normally cut verrry slow on a tablesaw for small chips without any burn. The test cut with a 1.75hp on maple butcherblock was fine (except the SS fence had a bulge). I hear the 3hp comes with a more usable dust collector blade guard. I have never used a tablesaw blade guard and not sure how to cut small pieces with one. I did already buy a 1/8" ATBR Forrest blade, dado and ZCI. Forrest guy said thin kerf blades usually don't survive a Sawstop activation. Does seem to me that the table saw should have amply more power than the track saw.

    Maybe I'll tell Aaron to size for two 4" ports and see what he comes up with. I could hang a second inlet from the ceiling. I prefer the aluminum rotor that Cinci uses. I can mate with Oneida Cyclone and 17-gallon squat barrel and put on a new shelf over the space where the table saw is stored, in using leftover space in the garage.

    @ChrisA: I have had better results with the Shaper making finger joints for my 37" boxes by making sure I never rescan. I am programming .014" clearance between fingers for a light friction fit on baltic birch. There is still lousy forward-back accuracy. My workstation is excellent but I could consider their little plastic one also. I missed today's web session in lieu of a fire department call.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Ralph E Burns; 05-21-2020 at 6:10 PM.

  14. #59
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    First rules of dust collection....it's the most important tool in the shop and it'd never "overkill" to have something more capable. So I disagree with "Aaron". A lot.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  15. #60
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    AGree with Jim...
    no throw away HD dust collector can handle the dust volume from TS.. not even close.
    I use a Festool Dust collector only for the top, and it only works marginal for the top collection, hopefully u should have better luck with SS. But u mentioned that the 1.75 does not have equal top dust collection as the 3hp. This matters a lot...as if their is not a proper design of the dust shroud, it will will be disappointing.
    Interesting stats the rep sent you... noise data reporting is impressive.
    You did not mention if noise was an issue, if so, like many fans, that is quite loud. If u are in an isolated area, this cold be a non issue. I am currently using a Laguna PFlux, as noise is an issue in my current set up. It is very quiet considering its size. ONce I move out of this small shop, I will move to my next shop, i can relax the noise requirement.
    lots of variables to consider, u are doing a good job collecting info...

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