INCRA or Sawstop router lift or other? (PCS tablesaw shopping)

[Will Blick]

There is tens of thousands of us that feel the same as you!
IMO, the joinery option if perfected, will push this product into the mainstream for our type, hardcore hobbyist, with limited floor space who desire multi application use for a tool. Complex tools that get little use, are often hard to re acclimate yourself to all the tools rules, nuisances, etc.
BTW, did the early adapters get a discount?
this is becoming the new norm for specialized tools in the ww field, sell them before they are made.

[Ralph E Burns]

Hello, hello, hello and 1, 2, 3:

I know you have done a lot of work and are not a newb...

1. Dispel any notion that I'm anything other than a novice! I would like to up the skillset and make tip-top cabinets for the campervan... some foam-core vacuum-bagged curvy things. Partly to honor Dad, and partly just driven that way - which is why work hasn't started!

follow the Bill Pentz method on NOT filtering the cyclone waste, but instead exhausting it directly outside.

2. Aha... vent to the outdoors! I didn't understand until your writing that the particles exhausted to outdoors are small and the big chips vortex into the dust bin. I live in a cabin (not really) in the woods (1 acre, shared driveway). The closest thing to the side of the garage is the hot tub on a deck about 25’ away. The point about sucking out heated air is a bugger…. It’s often @#%$#& cold in the garage here at 6,600 Colorado feet. There’s a tiny 65 sq. ft. shop adjoining the garage with electric heat and workbenches for working on smaller stuff. In winter, I’ll draft the electric shop heat from the shop into the garage, light a small propane heater, and leave the door to the house open (bachelor style). Car back in at night.

The garage outlet has 30A, single phase 220V and 20A 110V. The Sawstop will already draw 13A 220V. More pleasant to avoid doing electrical upgrades… the Bill Pentz 5hp Cyclone draws 21A 220V. Are there other turnkey ones? Or is the route DIY with a quality 2-3hp impeller (who’s???) plus a cyclone like Dust Deputy?

Yea, yea, there’s health and yea I should pay attention, tho my primary objective is to have a clean shop so when I HVLP spray finish then it’s not a weekend of murder trying to eliminate dust. I do have a half-dozen Festools and their dust extractor (137cfm).

I drank the Coolaid and have bought the Shaper Origin and ordered the Workstation.

3. The Shaper Origin fills a niche. The personal question is which one? I built a real nice SO workstation before Shaper offered one. Mine is 48” wide, and see the post, my trials in post #26 and current 37” work box project post #38. Here’s my take: The SO is vision-guided and some accuracy over short distances, but because it stitches together many images to scan a larger taped area, an optical parallax error accumulates. So while I’m able to get a light press-fit in small parts with a few thousandths clearance, I got maybe 1/16” or 2mm error in the finger joints over 37” (would drive a fella to spend for INCRA). It is not a result of router bits, or feed rate, because I’m taking finishing cuts of .005” and on the first box designed in .01” glue line. I’ve got seven more of these boxes to build and get out of my life, so stay tuned. If I use the same scan and setup for all mating parts then perhaps the error will be matched between parts for an easy fit and I’ll be none the wiser.

SO’s own workstation might offer different possibilities than mine, and perhaps I should have sat thru the entirety of the last live streamed demo. It might be more accurate to index parts than use a big wide scan.

Here’s a point of comparison; I used the SO to inlay the new router lift into a piece of Baltic birch to make a temporary shaper table while waiting for the SS table. The router lift measured 9.2475” x 11.7475” with calipers, so I drew 9.25” x 11.75” inlay hole to cut with SO. The 9.25” was front-back and 11.75” left-right with SO tape out front, always 100% tape health meter. I had to add maybe .005” or so left-right (I forget), and about .025” front-back. And that’s stepping up about .002” per cut and try.


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[Will Blick]

Interesting take on the SO...time will tell on this...
maybe long joints can be problematic as it must overlay scan views of the dominos as you suggest...more room for error vs. doing a 6" box joint.

As for the Bill Pentz method... I was only referring to his premise of exhausting cyclone waste outside. He pushes this as the FIRST option, as he took in lots of super fine dust particles and ended up with serious lung disease. His white papers on the subject are a must read for anyone concerned about lung health for ww. I am grateful for the education he provided me and many other ww's. All good cyclones will operate similar, i.e. it will exhaust invisible particles. I realize you will add some heating costs, but you wont require the cost of major hepa filters, cleaning them, replacing them, etc. I think u will find with fine dust vs. shavings, a 1 micron filter will get clogged quite often. The more they get clogged, the greater the suction loss. So if you do go the HEPA filter route, be sure to get one with the manual clean system, otherwise, you have to remove the large filter and brush the interior, vac it, air gun, which also creates a ton of fine dust you must contend with. EVen with the manual clean system, you still need to take it off and clean it as I stated above, but much less often. These 1 micron filters perform much better with shavings, such as a jointer vs. router dust which is not heavy enough to fall, so it easily passesto the to the filter and clings. And trust me, you can get 3x the suction at the machine from the same HP cyclone if you exhaust outside vs. a 1 micron filter, and that is with a clean filter. Since u have limited power as well, u may want to enter that into your decision equation. Lots of cyclone makers out there, including home made systems on ebay, they come in all sizes. You can mix n match a cyclone with a fan system, or buy a complete system.

IF possible, I prefer get a cyclone with turning vanes in it, which is on the Pentz system, but maybe others too, not sure. I find the turning vanes is the key to pushing waste down into the waste bin vs. continuously swirling in the cyclone till you turn off the cyclone.... again, the continuous swirling sends more dust towards the filter. And if you can hang it high on the wall, sometimes limited or no foot print loss based on your ceiling height.

Not trying to push you one way or another, just sharing my 15 yrs experience with many different dust collection issues in several shops.
Also, a room dust collector mounted near the ceiling should be mandatory if you plan to use the same space for finishing.... you gotta get the dust out of the air, as no system will collect 100%.
Hope this helps...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

When I added my router, SawStop did not offer a lift. So, I did the following:

1. Purchase a router lift.
2. Create my own template and route a hole in the side table that came with my sawstop.
3. Re-enforce the the top so that it would not sag with the extra weight.
4. Build a box for dust collection
5. Attach an external power switch

How many of these steps are automated if you use their router table? As it is, I do not have a router table fence as I would like. I made one, but I clamp it to the sawstep fence. it works, but, it is not great.

SO just decide how much work you want to do on your own. What I like about the SawStop (based on a cursory glance) is that much has already been done for you and their instructions are usually top notch.

None of this looks at how easily thing adjust, or, how much inserts cost. Some companies have expensive inserts and some are much less expensive.

[Ralph E Burns]

@Will Blick: I'm sold on the outside vent. Thanks!!! Want to figure out a modest-current one that I can power without an electrical upgrade. Not sure where to turn for that yet.

@Andrew Pitonyak: I ordered all five of your checklist instead of DIY.

[ChrisA Edwards]

A friend electrician measured my 220v 3P Sawstop at around 3-4A when running.

I was concerned about running my Hammer A3-31 J/P and the SawStop off the same 30A circuit, at the same time, so while he was swapping out a 50A GFCI for a regular 50A, he put his load tool on and measured the draw while I powered various machines on and off. With both machines running I wa pulling around 8A to 9A. The J/P, being 4HP, had the heavier draw.

Thanks for the info on the Shaper Origin.

[Ralph E Burns]

Anybody have a Bill Pentz Clearvue Cyclone? And a clampmeter? @Will Blick?

I'm hoping to get a measurement of the nominal current draw for that 5hp 220V single phase motor, without the torque draw of downstream filters, just exhausting to the outdoors. Understood that YMMV due to ducting, but that'd at least give a point of reference for a possible CV1800 purchase.

Cheerio! - Ralph

[Will Blick]

I no longer have the clearview up n running, as I moved out of that shop....
Now use a Laguna P with filters hate it... just temporary.
but IIRC, about 22amps at 240V...if you pull 220V, u will of course, pull more amps, its linear.
I had lots of 8inch ducting...
Call ClearVue, they are very helpful and know their products well... they might have start using a more efficient motor which will effect the numbers even more...or even a more efficient fan impeller.
Beware of electrical upgrade, there is often many "gotchas" attached to those.... but if your main service is big enough, its also something to consider.

[Will Blick]

Since you are still at the exploratory stage, and space is an issue....
if your garage borders outside, and its not an eye sore based on your house layout...
you can build a room outside your garage wall, enclose the cyclone and waste bin. Then exhaust inside the room, which then exits outside... Clearvue has a nice drawing of this set up somewhere on their web site....it will benefit you twofold, if you build the room soundproof, the room acts as your muffler...and with no duct run to get to the outside, you will draw even less power, as most applications still need to duct outside.

[Frank Pratt]

Anybody have a Bill Pentz Clearvue Cyclone? And a clampmeter? @Will Blick?

I'm hoping to get a measurement of the nominal current draw for that 5hp 220V single phase motor, without the torque draw of downstream filters, just exhausting to the outdoors. Understood that YMMV due to ducting, but that'd at least give a point of reference for a possible CV1800 purchase.

Cheerio! - Ralph

The real world current draw of a 5 HP single phase motor will be anywhere from 10 A - 22 A. It will depend a little on the motor itself, but a lot on how much static pressure loss there is from ducting & filters. Going with no filters will increase the airflow and the motor current.

[Ralph E Burns]

I'm going to try and stick with the existing 30A single-phase breaker for both the 3hp SS and dust extractor. Today's static voltage measures 244VAC and it's a 10GA wiring run unless upgraded.

I'm working along the lines that motor torque is proportional to current, and exploring to see if the Clearvue 5hp motor will run much less than full current load since I'll use no exhaust filter. Understood that the ducting will be an unknown... just trying to get in the general ballpark and assuming that a filter is the big load. Clearvue thus far hasn't provided a nominal current when there is no exhaust filter (I suspect they will play it conservative and avoid that question). They did say that their impeller requires 4hp and they oversized to ensure that the motor was not operating near capacity.

Optimal would be: 3hp SS + Clearvue 5hp on the existing breaker. Just don't start both simultaneously. Obviously this is pushing it.

Compromise would be: 3hp SS + Oneida Dust Deputy Cyclone + somebody's 2-3hp blower (? who's?). The upside of the compromise is that it's smaller, and I could juggle layout and mount it on a shelf above the storage spot for the table saw. Less brain damage this route?

[Frank Pratt]

I'm going to try and stick with the existing 30A single-phase breaker for both the 3hp SS and dust extractor. Today's static voltage measures 244VAC and it's a 10GA wiring run unless upgraded.

I'm working along the lines that motor torque is proportional to current, and exploring to see if the Clearvue 5hp motor will run much less than full current load since I'll use no exhaust filter.

Optimal would be: 3hp SS + Clearvue 5hp on the existing breaker. Just don't start both simultaneously. Obviously this is pushing it.

You've got it all wrong there. If you remove the filter, the motor load will go up. Less static pressure = more airflow = higher motor load. Didn't I say that just one post back?

If you try running a 3 HP say & a 5 HP blower anywhere near capacity you'll trip the breaker.

Let me try to understand your thinking. You are willing to spend for a top notch, powerful saw and a top notch, powerful dust collector, but you're not willing to spend a tiny fraction of that for another circuit? You won't be able to use either one to near their potential. So why not just save a bucket full of money & get yourself a 1.5 HP saw & a little dust collector that will only do half a job. Then you will only need the one circuit.

[Ralph E Burns]

If you remove the filter, the motor load will go up. Less static pressure = more airflow = higher motor load. Didn't I say that just one post back?

Yes you did, and my thinking is indeed opposite. Less dynamic pressure = less motor torque = less current. Current is almost linearly proportional to torque (not speed), is that right?

Let me try to understand your thinking. You are willing to spend for a top notch, powerful saw and a top notch, powerful dust collector, but you're not willing to spend a tiny fraction of that for another circuit?

Correcto! I've been blowing big bucks and trying to go cheap here! Not excited about outgrowing the old breaker box... hence some fast-footed rationalization that neither motor needs to be at capacity together.

This is just an occasional hobby and I'm the guy with too many hobbies!

[Jim Becker]

Ralph, for the blower on the DC, contrary to "initial logical thought", the least load on the system is when all the blast gates are closed off and no air is flowing. The most load is when the maximum amount of air is flowing. That's why you never run a cyclone system without duct work attached and the bin fully sealed--you can damage or kill the motor. So when you are working with the DC on and the gate is open to your saw, the power draw on the DC is going to be higher than if you had the gate closed. That has to be taken into consideration relative to your power supply. It's pretty much a "best practice" to have a big DC system on a dedicated circuit since it's used with "all the tools". But those tools can easily share a circuit because one person can only run one tool at a time.

[Ralph E Burns]

Hmm, ok! Does seem odd…

I'll take a hard look at the breaker box, but it's looking full. And don't think I'll replace the breaker box without doing the prep work for generator backup. And that's more complicated b/c the house is divided into two subpanels...

Beware of electrical upgrade, there is often many "gotchas" attached to those....

I started wanting the Shaper Origin to do things and then when it didn't a router table and now look!