INCRA or Sawstop router lift or other? (PCS tablesaw shopping)

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have the Incra 1000HD, which is very good, but for 99% of cross cutting, I use a cross cut sled. The Incra 1000HD comes out when I need to cut an angle on the end of a piece of wood.

The Incra system comes with a full length front and rear rail, neither are carrying much load. I was concerned about the 4 places the rails attach to the cast iron table, but you can buy extra L brackets ($16) and beef that up to be pretty much the same mount points as the L channel of the OEM rail mount.

I did find out, the difference between the 32" and the 52" Incra system is just the table rails being 20" longer, The arm for the TS-LS positioner is the same length, so to do a wider rip cut, you have to move the base of the TS-LS positioner. Not a huge deal as you would have a set of reference stops for each position.

I looked it this, as I figured I could get about a 42" rip comfortably where my saw sits now. But I can actually achieve this with what I currently have as the central arm is the same for both lengths.

Personally, I would skip the SawStop outfeed table and make you own. The Incra rails offer a much easier attachment point than the OEM rear rail.

For Dust Collection, I bought a mobile dust collector, but for less than $100, I ran Schedule 20 6" sewar pipe to a couple of drops with blast gates. When I moved house I removed it. Being lightweight, I just had to sparkle a few mount holes.

One thing you mentioned was using the router table, if I understand it, moving work parallel to the front rail, so you would have the support of the entire table.

My thought of this, you would have a vey short infeed support to the router bit and a massive support on the outfeed side. Using it right end, as in my video, you get reasonable support for both infeed and outfeed, but you could also slide your folding outfeed, along the fence rail, to provide extra table support and in theory, you could make a mini folding outfeed table that you could attach to the front rail when needed. You can see in my video, my current outfeed table is on casters and I actually rolled it down to provide extra infeed support for the long peices I was cutting.

[woody dixon]

Chris,

I am particularly interested in the router dust box. How does the knob at the top work to keep the door in place? Perhaps a picture of the part with the door off also. Nice work.

Woody Dixon

[ChrisA Edwards]

It is held in place by magnets




Back side of the door



You can see the cabinet magnets on the bottom, these also help the door align

[David Buchhauser]

I am using the Kreg router lift along with the Rockler dust bucket. Both work great - I'm very impressed with the fit, finish, and functionality of both.
David

https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-PRS5000-.../dp/B079YY98N1

https://www.rockler.com/dust-bucket-...-router-tables

[Ben Helmich]

I have a 3HP saw and love it. The only issue I have with it is if you rearrange your shop for any reason the 220V outlet is a problem. Unless you put 220V outlets all over. The 1.75HP saw has a normal 125V 15A plug on it (I think.) I’m in a two car garage and it seems like every time I bring a new tool home I have to move everything around.

[Ralph E Burns]

Hello & I gotta say thanks for all this SMC forum input. Y'all have been great. Remember I'm not a real woodworker...

Question for all and @ Prashun Patel, @ Frank Pratt: Do you think this 1hp Oneida Cobra @ 245cfm will be sufficient? I'll struggle to make space for the 1.5hp Oneida Mini-Gorilla @ 583cfm, AND there's a open-box Oneida Cobra that I can get locally at a discount. Sawstop recommends 350cfm.

Today I visited my buddy who got a 1.75hp PCS a few months ago, and brought along one of my baddest examples for power cut: a 1-3/4" thick piece of maple butcherblock. The power from his saw seemed fine. While I overloaded Dad's old Rockwell saw a zillion times, I think that was because I had only one blade that was always getting dull in the middle of a project. That is solved by owning two good blades, plus I now have a 17" bandsaw for ripping thick stuff. A call to Sawstop revealed that the upgrade price is $500 later, which isn't that exorbitant compared to the $430 upgrade paid upfront on a new purchase. Although I do have 220V in the garage now, that voltage could be a PIA if I move (like into my basement). Plus, can't I always feed slower if the blade bogs down? Good choice? Bad choice?

I'll read the INCRA TS-LS manual tonight before ordering. Something I would like to get are front & rear rails that are a minimum of 67-3/4" long, which is the same width of the saw table. I may be able to buy my own L-angle to mount both the INCRA rear rail and the SS outfeed table at once.

So far I'm thinking: 1.75 hp 110V PCS, ICS mobile base, 36" T-glide just to be safe, folding outfeed table, and I can order the cast iron router table (RT-C27), cast iron middle insert table (RT-ICW) and router switch (RT-PSW) without ordering the Sawstop router fence and save $190, and add a Sawstop Router Dust Collection box (RT-DCB).

Add either a 1/8" Forrest Woodworker II, 3/32" Thin-Kerf Woodworker II, or what's this Modified ATB-R Forrest in either 1/8" or 3/32"? Greek to me, but website says modified gives faster feed with less side scoring (is the downside that it dulls faster?). I have 9" Thin-Kerf Woodworker II on Dad's old 1hp Rockwell.

And the INCRA router lift and a dust collector that minimizes footprint.

My buddies saw did have a blade burnishing / burning problem. His fence has a .006" waviness, while the saw blade angles left about .002", so a .004" pinch at blade back. It would would always burn the first part of the butcherblock rip, slower feed making the burn worse, and on only the first half of the board. Here's a pic from feeding as fast as I was comfortable.

2020-04-30_Grants_SawStop_123048sm.jpg
2020-04-30_Grants_SawStop_122452sm.jpg

[Ralph E Burns]

BTW I ordered:
- 3hp PCS, to play it safe power-wise.
- INCRA fence. I already received the INCRA router lift and am using in in a temporary table.

Thanks all for the guidance.

[Michael Drew]

As far as accuracy and repeatability go, for about a hundred bucks you can put a DRO on the fence. I got one because I sometimes have trouble focusing on the cursor & rule lines. The DRO solved that problem and allows me to exactly repeat a cut later if I need to.

A 2 stage collector, with a cyclone & HEPA filter is lots better than single stage. Saves you from cleaning filters every time (or more frequently) the bin is emptied. Oneida makes a smaller roll around collector that might work for you. Check out their website.

I'd like to see your DRO. Is it a Wixey, or other? I've been wondering just how to install one on my Incra TS fence.

[Will Blick]

Ralph, very impressed with your analytical approach to your buy. Very smart, as you have learned, much of this stuff like Incra is often back ordered quite long and you cant easily return a SS at Walmart for an upgrade.

I have the Incra LS set up on PM2k, with WP router table and WP lift. I can not comment on the which lift is the best, as its the only when I ever used. I do like the ability to make micro height adjustments with ease right at the table top...thats an option I would consider mandatory. There is even an electric version I would prefer now The incra system is so versatile and useful, and with your technical expertise, you will master it in short time... for exact cuts and repeatability, it cant be beat. But for work that is not super critical
(say .01"?) standard TS Fences are more than sufficient. Incra takes precision to a new level. I am sure you are aware, the process of making joints on Incra is quite cumbersome vs. a jig, but it does offer greater versatility in the joint layout ...considering your technical expertise, you can make it work better than most users, who get frustrated with the set up and constant re positioning of the fence.

As for dust collection, as others have pointed out, you cant have enough. The router table can have so many ports to grab it all, a vac wont suck as well as a cyclone. I use a 2hp Laguna PFlux cycline AND my Festool Vac for adequate dust removal. For the TS, I also use both, the festool for top collection and the cyclone for bottom.

Since you are so well versed at CAD, I thought the Shaper Origin might be an option for you. I was intrigued by their recent push into the joinery field with their side attachment. But I wondered how such a system can have the accuracy for tight joints whereas precision is measured at least .001" or better. While the SO is brilliant and well executed product with great appeal for doing large work and folding it away, it seems precision work would be a rough go. I read your SO post you linked to, and it appears you had this exact issue.

However when I watch the SO videos with the jointer attachment, it seems they might have mastered it? I realize its a sales video, but if you could maybe shed some light on this, as you obvious have great experience at this. I am just curious your reasons for eliminating the SO for joinery, as it does seem like a great fit for you. Spend your time in CAD, then whip out the joint, vs the long set up of and tedious process of Incra joinery, which can be prone to human error as soo many movements are required for each joint.


Great saw selection of course, but for me, I would not get the 1.75hp, unless you can get away with a thin kerf blade. The wider blades in hard and or thick woods will bog down the motor, forcing a slower feed rate, creating wood burn, forcing another clean up operation. 3HP IMO is the sweet spot for a TS, only the hardest and very thick boards will challenge, in which case, a 5hp is the better solution...but my guess, 99% of cuts made on TS's dont need 5Hp.

[hugh lonner]

I have the 3hp PCS with the sawstop router table and dust collection box, but substituted in the incra Mast-R-Lift. It works really well. I just slide the dust collector I use on the saw over to the SS dust collection box and am amazed at the lack of dust. I use the dust right fittings so it is super easy to swap the hose over. I don't find the SS as big an upgrade over the cheap table saw I had before as I'd expected, but the router table and lift are by far my favorite part and they really impress me.

[Ralph E Burns]

@Will Blick : I do have time on the Shaper Origin. I hoped that it would provide me with adequate finger joints. Stay tuned, but thus far it has not by any stretch. I will be trying more finger-jointed boxes in a few days (37" long). Last box was a disappointment with .07" or .08" SO error. I had thought that I wanted a router table, so one thing has led to another and I'm adding the SS router table + INCRA to that 3hp SS (space saver). Lots sentimentality with Dad's 1950's(?) Rockwell that I grew up with; two generations of kid's toys and office desks. I did get the INCRA Jessem router lift two days ago and have put it to use on a temporary table. If the rest of the INCRA stuff turns out that nice then I'll be tickled.

Dust... how many CFM's is enough? SawStop said 350cfm is an ideal target. Space is a premium in my 2-car garage... it's used for the car! I'd have to remove some wall shelving to erect a dust collector. BTW, Dad's dust collector was a cardboard box under the saw. :-)

I'm not interested in a dust collector that doesn't do 1 micron or better filtering; think HEPA E12? Many of you have Oneida... and there's budget Grizzly and Rockler pieces. I like the footprint of this quieter $1100 Oneida Dust Cobra but it lists at only 245cfm (and there's a one listed locally on Craigslist). The next step at 580cfm 1.5hp Mini-Gorilla is more of a space challenge, and the one that looks killer is big bucks, 5hp SuperCell.

Choices, $$ and space and amps. What is the sweet spot?

[Will Blick]

Hi Ralph, understood on the space issue, that of course complicates things a lot. A few suggestions for you to chew on....
As you prob. know.... the greater the filtration requirement, such as 1 micron, the greater the resistance the moving air is confronted with, and therefore, it will generate less CFM at the router. I like your 1 micron requirement, I too am a dust fanatic, its the particles under 5 microns that causes the most harm to our health. Therefore, each time you increase the CFM requirement at the machine, and at the filtration the size of dust collector motor and cyclone size grows by the power of 4
One suggestion is.... do the best you can with dust collection with a small system, but wear a good respirator, which beats any dust collection. The fine particles settle rather quickly after a procedure. A dust meter will demonstrate this to you. Vac things up shortly thereafter. You dont have to use the respirator forever. Remember, even with the best dust collection, on things like a router table, certain cuts will always produce escaped dust regardless how well you designed your dust collection. The rare exception is, if maybe you alter the dust collection set up for nearly every type of cut. I know you have done a lot of work and are not a newb, but not everyone is aware of the dust in the air during procedures, even with good dust collection. And considering you will do more procedures like sanding, even with Festool set up, which does the best job of dust collection, the small particles we fear are still in the air we breathe, so respirator is still mandatory if you have a serious dust concern like you do.

My second suggestion is, and I feel is the BEST of for health and budget...is to follow the Bill Pentz method on NOT filtering the cyclone waste, but instead exhausting it directly outside. Tons of info on the web if you have not yet found it. I used this for 10 yrs. I am not sure this is possible in your situation, as you must consider some outdoor noise (which a custom low cost muffler can reduce 90%) and sucking out air which you must then heat / cool the new introduced air. Most cyclones will capture particles greater than 15-20 microns, with the smaller dangerous particles being exhausted outside, which are of course invisible to the eye. This GREATLY increases the CFM at the machine, and will allow you to get a much smaller cyclone. Its hard to compare cyclones when they all have different filtration values, so its not that easy.

Next, consider a ceiling mount cyclone such as Rockler and Penn Industries makes a nice unit that is on the quiet side and can be ceiling mounted, but you add your own cyclone. this will remove the footprint from the floor, and prevent the storage issue. If you can exhaust the waste outside, you would best accomplish all your objectives...

As for the SO, I am sure you have seen their video on the joinery accessory they sell (I am unsure if you used that added accessory in your failed test, pls share) and the making of dovetail joints. They fit like a glove in the video. For many ww's, that is an appealing option, i.e. a joinery machine in which most of the work is done in CAD vs. on the cutting jig itself, while at the same time, a tool that can perform large scale CNC work. Then, when completed it takes up no floor space. If it worked, it would be a massive breakthrough in ww and provide tremendous value to ww's.

However, as I mentioned, when I see how the machine finds its bearings, which is quite novel and impressive and obviously can work very well for things like signage, I had my doubts it would ever deliver accuracy sufficient for super precision joints. I also found it hard to believe they would produce a sham video on their website to sell the joiner accessory. Hence what interested me about your experience. So any additional input you can share with us, would be greatly appreciated, as like many of us, you appreciate precision.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I drank the Coolaid and have bought the Shaper Origin and ordered the Workstation. I expect I'll receive the SO later this week, but the Worlstation is not shipping until around September.

I watched a lot of SO Youtube videos and have been on their last two live demonstrations. Th first live demo, I saw, they cut finger joints and butterflies as inserts to brace cracks. Both were done live so they convinced me, enough, to spend close to the price of my Sawstop, that this will perform accurately.

I wonder if the choice of bits and the actual material, being cut, has a major factor on the success of the operation.

I'll be using this on plywood and well as solid stock so we'll see.

[Will Blick]

Congrats Chris!!
I think that is why they do the live demos, more convincing eliminates any editing
I wanted to see the live demos, but work got in the way.
The joint precision was scary good in the recorded demo.
Of course, quality bits would matter, as the CNC assumes a certain diameter, angle, etc. Run out in the bearings matter, all the same things for CNC I would think.
More importantly, the domino layout, or even domino dot size is prob. the biggest factor for precision, as its those dominos that give the router its exact location. A truly brilliant product IMO. Hopefully by the time they start shipping the joinery accesory they will continue to fine tune all these details....so even newbs will have the required success to turn the SO into the super value tool that will assure its place as a staple for limited space ww's.
Not to hijack the thread, but did u buy it for joinery primarily, or for the larger CNC tasks?

[ChrisA Edwards]

Not to hijack the thread, but did u buy it for joinery primarily, or for the larger CNC tasks?

I wanted a full 4x4 minimum gantry CNC, but that looked like a $7000+ proposition. Being new to the whole idea of CNC, and also just a hobbyist, I don't really have a need for one other than as a toy. For doing small stuff, making jigs, small wood signs, I figured the SO would be a suitable tool.