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Thread: New Hammer combo machine on the way!

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Solomon View Post
    I'm trying to go a little more minimalist this time, saving money for retirement which is hopefully only three years out. So this time around, I plan on buying tools only as I need them.

    I've been wondering about the feeder though, and I am glad you both brought it up. I plan on making a prototype of the frame and panel doors before cutting my nice wood. It is then that I was hoping to find out if I can do this without a feeder. I am hoping that if the work is securely clamped to the sliding table, I can slowly push it into the shaper with enough control. Is it that hard to do without a feeder? Is the concern quality of cut, or primarily safety? I don't mind if I need to sand out a few imperfections.
    As Brent commented safety and finish are both improved by the feeder.

    That said for a few pieces I hand feed, the Shaw guard will give you downwards pressure and pressure towards the fence, which is good.

    Does your fence have the safety bars that bridge the fence openings?

    I don't normally make raised panels, I make Shaker style doors. For coping I use the sliding table with a tenon hood/table and for the sticking I use the feeder normally although for a few pieces I hand feed.........Regards, Rod.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Solomon View Post
    Brent, it is a surprisingly small world. Coincidentally, I watched both of your frame and panel door videos before you replied to my post, one of them twice. Your videos are instructive and entertaining, so much so that I went onto the Whitehill website and picked out insert tooling that matches the profile I was looking for! I ended up finding an American company, Rangate, that offers a very similar limiter cutter heads and tooling (I'm guessing it's the same mfr as Whitehill). Any how, they talked me out of using the insert cutterheads for the rail and stile cuts. The gentleman told me that the cuts would not be accurate enough (too loose or too tight Etc.), and I wouldn't be happy with the result. Any validity to this? His recommended tooling was more fit for a pro shop rather than a hobbyist ($3,000!). He rents the tooling for $300 for a month. I decided to pass.

    Long story short, I went a different direction and bought an Amana 3-wing reversible carbide rail and stile cutter, and a raised panel cutter (not insert tooling style). However, for future projects, I would prefer an insert style limiter cutterhead as you had used, as the inserts are not that expensive once you have the head. You clearly had good results with your cutterhead. Sounds like I should reconsider and get one?

    Great YouTube channel, thanks!

    Todd
    Hi Todd, not to sound like a pedant here but terminology has caught us up before. Some people consider "insert tooling" to be any type of tooling where you "insert" a knife into the tool body for use, where some people reserve that terminology just for heads that hold the little thin carbide tips. Some people call the style I have in that video a "Euroblock" or "limiter head" though that's not universal unfortunately!

    While some might claim otherwise, both styles require user input when installing knives to get perfect results. Often tooling companies will provide a little gauge you are supposed to use when inserting and setting the carbide tips and though there are differences in quality (and thus ease of installing inserts) none of them are fool proof and can be done incorrectly without proper attention. I don't own any Rangate, but a student of mine did and he was getting mediocre results with it until I reset the inserts for him. In North America the commonly available knives for the limiter heads or euroblocks are the cheap, churned-out-like-sausages 40mm knives that are mass produced in cheap steel and are really hit and miss. I have some and they're fine for some things though I wouldn't rely on them for cope and stick. Unfortunately, those economy grade knives are the only ones I've seen people use here though shops I've been in in the UK didn't have many or any of these due to quality. As you have seen, high quality, pin retained knives properly installed in a quality head produces excellent results. This is why thousands and thousands of people use them for this.

    Whithill manufactures their own tooling right there in their own shop in the UK and retails from there too with no middle man. They buy high quality knife blanks by the train load from Germany and grind them for you right there to your specs. Much or maybe all of Rangate's stuff is manufactured in Italy by TWT which is a merger of Zuani and Garniga and someone else so both options are from across the pond. I use my tooling to make a living but I have zero interest in churning out enormous volumes of anything which really (along with abrasive materials like MDF and exotic hardwoods) is the realm of carbide inserts. If I do have a large run of something the knives for the limiter heads can be tipped in carbide for longevity. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with carbide insert tooling, it's just with the volume and type of work I do in a one to three person shop, it doesn't pay for itself . That said, any general purpose tooling I own that gets used a LOT or in abrasive materials is carbide insert, ie. rebate blocks, adjustable groovers, lock miter, seal groovers, trenching head, shaker door sets, edge banding and more but anything with a variable profile is done with limiter heads in HSS. Put it this way....if someone gave me a Rolls Royce calibre, insert-style kitchen door set 10 years ago, it would still be sitting on the shelf unused. Inevitably the profiles that come with those sets are uninteresting and you have limited to no ability to make your own profiles. So you would be trying to compete with kitchen door factories that are doing the profiles popular that year and can produce huge quantities of doors a day for peanuts. If you do find a discriminating client who appreciates the color and grain matching attention to detail a small custom shop can offer to a set of doors with a common profile, then a set of quality HSS knives will be good for more than a kitchen's worth of doors. Sounds like you got brazed carbide tipped tooling which is a quick and reliable way to start off, but like you seem to be anticipating, you'll outgrow it.

    Not everyone in North America is concerned about it, but I suggest you seriously consider tooling that is MAN rated for safety. It is required in much of Europe but not here so you have to ask. If you decide you want MAN rated (it's up to you), don't accept an ambiguous answer like "Yeah you can feed it by hand" ask specifically if it meets the standards for MAN rating in Europe. These standards are explicitly documented and well understood and if they don't know or won't say, walk away.

    Thanks for the kind words! The videos are fun to do though take a lot of time. I try not to do "how to" videos though they might be fun one day. I am editing one right now on making a simple country or shaker style table using tenons cut on the shaper. The whole build took 6 hours, but the video work more than that! I upgraded the microphone and camera and I hope it makes a difference. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

    Cheers,

    B

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    275
    That's a wealth of info and I appreciate you sharing Brent.

    Your description of the care needed to set the knives correctly and accurately in the limiter block makes sense. And I'll go with Whitehill limiter heads when the time comes. As a matter of fact, I nearly bought one today from a Creeker, but his was for a 30mm spindle. My spindle is 1-1/4".

    I'm subscribed and I see a bunch of videos on shaper tooling and techniques on your YouTube channel. Looking forward to viewing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    Hi Todd, not to sound like a pedant here but terminology has caught us up before. Some people consider "insert tooling" to be any type of tooling where you "insert" a knife into the tool body for use, where some people reserve that terminology just for heads that hold the little thin carbide tips. Some people call the style I have in that video a "Euroblock" or "limiter head" though that's not universal unfortunately!

    While some might claim otherwise, both styles require user input when installing knives to get perfect results. Often tooling companies will provide a little gauge you are supposed to use when inserting and setting the carbide tips and though there are differences in quality (and thus ease of installing inserts) none of them are fool proof and can be done incorrectly without proper attention. I don't own any Rangate, but a student of mine did and he was getting mediocre results with it until I reset the inserts for him. In North America the commonly available knives for the limiter heads or euroblocks are the cheap, churned-out-like-sausages 40mm knives that are mass produced in cheap steel and are really hit and miss. I have some and they're fine for some things though I wouldn't rely on them for cope and stick. Unfortunately, those economy grade knives are the only ones I've seen people use here though shops I've been in in the UK didn't have many or any of these due to quality. As you have seen, high quality, pin retained knives properly installed in a quality head produces excellent results. This is why thousands and thousands of people use them for this.

    Whithill manufactures their own tooling right there in their own shop in the UK and retails from there too with no middle man. They buy high quality knife blanks by the train load from Germany and grind them for you right there to your specs. Much or maybe all of Rangate's stuff is manufactured in Italy by TWT which is a merger of Zuani and Garniga and someone else so both options are from across the pond. I use my tooling to make a living but I have zero interest in churning out enormous volumes of anything which really (along with abrasive materials like MDF and exotic hardwoods) is the realm of carbide inserts. If I do have a large run of something the knives for the limiter heads can be tipped in carbide for longevity. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with carbide insert tooling, it's just with the volume and type of work I do in a one to three person shop, it doesn't pay for itself . That said, any general purpose tooling I own that gets used a LOT or in abrasive materials is carbide insert, ie. rebate blocks, adjustable groovers, lock miter, seal groovers, trenching head, shaker door sets, edge banding and more but anything with a variable profile is done with limiter heads in HSS. Put it this way....if someone gave me a Rolls Royce calibre, insert-style kitchen door set 10 years ago, it would still be sitting on the shelf unused. Inevitably the profiles that come with those sets are uninteresting and you have limited to no ability to make your own profiles. So you would be trying to compete with kitchen door factories that are doing the profiles popular that year and can produce huge quantities of doors a day for peanuts. If you do find a discriminating client who appreciates the color and grain matching attention to detail a small custom shop can offer to a set of doors with a common profile, then a set of quality HSS knives will be good for more than a kitchen's worth of doors. Sounds like you got brazed carbide tipped tooling which is a quick and reliable way to start off, but like you seem to be anticipating, you'll outgrow it.

    Not everyone in North America is concerned about it, but I suggest you seriously consider tooling that is MAN rated for safety. It is required in much of Europe but not here so you have to ask. If you decide you want MAN rated (it's up to you), don't accept an ambiguous answer like "Yeah you can feed it by hand" ask specifically if it meets the standards for MAN rating in Europe. These standards are explicitly documented and well understood and if they don't know or won't say, walk away.

    Thanks for the kind words! The videos are fun to do though take a lot of time. I try not to do "how to" videos though they might be fun one day. I am editing one right now on making a simple country or shaker style table using tenons cut on the shaper. The whole build took 6 hours, but the video work more than that! I upgraded the microphone and camera and I hope it makes a difference. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

    Cheers,

    B

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    275
    I see the safety bars are offered by Felder that will fit my Hammer fence for $187. I've seen some vids of the Aigner safety fence in use, boy that looks nice. But I also found out that it costs about the same as my budget for a used bandsaw, lol. So I'll pick up the Hammer bars.

    Update: Iíve confirmed that it does come with the euro spindle guard, putting pressure down and into the fence. Iím surprised that there is almost no mention of it on their website or in their catalog. In any case, looks like Iím good to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    As Brent commented safety and finish are both improved by the feeder.

    That said for a few pieces I hand feed, the Shaw guard will give you downwards pressure and pressure towards the fence, which is good.

    Does your fence have the safety bars that bridge the fence openings?

    I don't normally make raised panels, I make Shaker style doors. For coping I use the sliding table with a tenon hood/table and for the sticking I use the feeder normally although for a few pieces I hand feed.........Regards, Rod.
    Last edited by Todd Solomon; 05-01-2020 at 9:02 AM.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto Ontario
    Posts
    9,967
    Yes Todd, your machine comes with the 2 part Shaw guard for the shaper, I find it easy to use and it provides good hold down.

    When I host seminars at Felder, the participants make a push block for the shaper, one with the cleat that's flush with the bottom of the block and projects to the inboard side, this is perfect for use with the Shaw guard, just make it about 10mm thick so it can pass under the clear outer Shaw guard.

    The fence fingers are extremely useful from a safety and quality of cut perspective. You're going to have a lot of fun with your new machine...Rod.
    Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 05-01-2020 at 9:34 AM.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,285
    Funny, I've been following this thread since first started but I just now put two and two together Todd.

    Hope the pieces from my saw help out. Enjoy the new combo unit. In a lot of ways, I wish I'd gone this route initially due to space constraints. Also, the idea of using a power feeder on the saw, shaper and jointer sure looks appealing. Can't do that easily on separates. Regards, Greg

  7. #22
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    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto Ontario
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Parrish View Post
    Funny, I've been following this thread since first started but I just now put two and two together Todd.

    Hope the pieces from my saw help out. Enjoy the new combo unit. In a lot of ways, I wish I'd gone this route initially due to space constraints. Also, the idea of using a power feeder on the saw, shaper and jointer sure looks appealing. Can't do that easily on separates. Regards, Greg
    Au contraire Greg, I do it often, I just move the J/P over and swing the feeder off the back of the saw/shaper........Rod.

    Jointing 1.jpg

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,285
    interesting. Thanks for sharing Rod. If my sawcends up selling without the feeder I may have to craft up a stand to work with my jointer on a stand alone basis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    Au contraire Greg, I do it often, I just move the J/P over and swing the feeder off the back of the saw/shaper........Rod.

    Jointing 1.jpg

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