Coronavirus affects other body systems

[Roger Feeley]

I recall some virus related thread where a comment was made about patients seeming to recover from lung problems only to succumb to heart problems. The poster was asked for a citation and couldn’t find one. The poster apologized and retracted the comment showing a level of integrity far in excess of normal online behavior.

i saw this this morning. If you scroll down you will see exactly what the poster saw. So, to who ever posted and then retracted, you aren’t crazy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...571_story.html

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This virus is so new, spreads so rapidly and the immediate battle is to save lives but little is known about the virus.

Personally, I think it's the asymptomatic carriers, those who are infected without symptoms, that we need to worry about. Those people can unknowingly be among the general public spreading the disease.

There is real reason to push for two types of testing. One test to determine who currently has the disease so they can be quarantined to prevent the spread. The 2nd test is needed to determine who has had the disease and developed an antibody. The 2nd group could safely go back to work without worry of catching it or generally speaking, without spreading it other than being secondary carriers.

A lot of emphasis is being placed on major population centers, their current danger and engagement. But think about this. The county where I live has an estimated population in 2016 IIRC of 40,369. So far the health district has confirmed 20 cases of Corvid-19 and as of 7:00 p.m. last night, 10 of those had died. That's 50% death rate in a rather remote, sparsely populated area. They also stated last night that all of the deaths occurred in people over the age of 70 with 8 of the 10 deaths happening to people over the age of 90. Lewiston is approximately 2,000' lower in elevation than the surrounding area and is often referred to as "The Banana Belt" due to our milder weather than the surrounding area. A lot of ranchers/farmers retire here. A lot of people from Spokane, WA, for instance, visit here in the winter to play golf when their golf courses are under snow. We have 3 hospitals within a 1 1/2 air mile radius of each other, plenty of specialty clinics, surgery centers, pain clinics, etc. so I don't think lack of medical services is a problem. I do think that age related underlying conditions can be a factor.

This is serious even in a remote area.

[Roger Feeley]

I see these priorities
1. Determine with certainty whether surviving the virus confers immunity and for how long. This is a big one to me.
2. Antibody testing. If the virus does make one immune, a person carrying antibodies can return to their old filthy habits. It’s widely felt that many more people have had the virus than the numbers suggest.
3. Early tracking and tracing when there is an outbreak

with regard to #4, I found an app offered by MIT. oddly named “Private Kit”, all it does is log your latitude and longitude with a time stamp every five minutes. Nothing is stored outside of your phone unless you choose to share it. Sharing is manual. You create a CSV file and email it. The idea is if I get sick, they are going to interview me to see where I’ve been over some number of days. With this app, I can just create a file and hand it over. Absent a better idea, I highly recommend this app. In my view, it is accurate enough while respecting your privacy.

But even when we have the all-clear, I just don’t know how I will feel about going to a sporting event, movie or restaurant.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Roger,

I completely agree with your first 3 priorities.

The 4th one presents a problem as I don't carry my cell phone. In fact, it resides in a drawer, doesn't come out for months to be used to text someone. I don't carry it when I am in town but do when I am traveling out of town. Regardless, there are some who will say you have to trust that the information isn't being shared without your knowledge. But, in fact, your idea does hold sand. How many people who are deathly ill want or are able to remember dates, times, locations, number of persons they met and name those individuals? As I said, I don't carry my cell phone and unlike my wife I don't wear or use Fitbit.

[Roger Feeley]

Roger,

I completely agree with your first 3 priorities.

The 4th one presents a problem as I don't carry my cell phone. In fact, it resides in a drawer, doesn't come out for months to be used to text someone. I don't carry it when I am in town but do when I am traveling out of town. Regardless, there are some who will say you have to trust that the information isn't being shared without your knowledge. But, in fact, your idea does hold sand. How many people who are deathly ill want or are able to remember dates, times, locations, number of persons they met and name those individuals? As I said, I don't carry my cell phone and unlike my wife I don't wear or use Fitbit.

yeah, I have a love-hate relationship with my smart phone. I’m going to go on record with a prediction that the powers that be are going to want real-time access to our location. The app I have is good for after the fact to reconstruct my travels but does no good In precisely finding others. It’s also not good for alerting other people. It can tell doctors that I was in my local CVS at a certain time but doesn’t tell them who else was there with any precision.

There is another app that logs all Bluetooth connections. The theory is that if you are close enough to connect to my phone, you are close enough to infect me. That starts to get into murky ethical waters. Every bluetooth chip has a unique MAC address. Your phone would pick up my phone and my phone would pick up your phone. If I’m infected, it would be a snap to trace everyone I’ve connected with and perhaps everyone they’ve connected with. But imagine the potential for abuse!

maybe I should add a 5th priority
5. Re-establish the Office for Technology Assessment that closed down a long time ago. This is a non-partisan group that helps pilot congress through issues just like this.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am listening to a discussion and I stand corrected. Two different doctors pointed out that even if you test positive with antibodies indicating you have survived the disease, it's no guarantee you won't be reinfected. They just don't know.

[Roger Feeley]

I am listening to a discussion and I stand corrected. Two different doctors pointed out that even if you test positive with antibodies indicating you have survived the disease, it's no guarantee you won't be reinfected. They just don't know.

once we get a reliable antibody test, I can think of three subgroups that should be tested right away and often.
- frontline healthcare workers
- prisoners
- military although I haven’t heard about many outbreak other than the one carrier.
all three have the virtue of being available for subsequent testing after infection and survival.

[Ken Barney]

I'm curious how many of the patients succumbing to heart-related problems received "hydroxychloroquine" as part of their treatment for the virus? Heart-related problems are several of the most common side effects of hydroxychloroquine.

[Edwin Santos]

Does anyone know if there is clarity at this point on why some people react so adversely to Covid-19 and others do not?

At one point the reporting was that elderly people and/or those with underlying health conditions were in the adverse category and everyone else is not.
Now we know that younger people are not exempt, and in some extreme outlier cases, even children.

But still, my question is why you can have two people of apparently similar health and one is basically asymptomatic, and the other becomes very very sick.
Look at two TV anchors, Chris Cuomo and George Stephanopoulos. Both have announced being Covid-19 positive. Both claim to be healthy, fit guys, and certainly look the part. Yet Cuomo has reported being very sick, down with continuous fever, chills, aches, sicker than he's ever been. Stephanopoulos says he is totally asymptomatic and actually "feels great". And to add to it, Stephanopoulos is 10 years older than Cuomo.

I'm trying to make sense of it. I'm wondering if it could be possible that there are now multiple strains originating from the one virus, or perhaps the virus is mutating as it spreads, becoming less or more lethal. In other words, maybe one person can contract a severe version of Covid-19 and another might only contract the milder version. This is only my speculation, but different strains would explain why people of similar health profiles would have such different experiences.

I'd welcome any insight.
Edwin

[Mike Henderson]

Virus mutate quickly and often. In past outbreaks of viral illness, people who had the serious version generally stayed home while those with the milder version went out and infected others. So eventually, the milder version became predominate and that version usually provided immunity to the more serious version.

This one may be doing the same thing. But I also expect that different people react differently to the exact same virus.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Virus mutate quickly and often. In past outbreaks of viral illness, people who had the serious version generally stayed home while those with the milder version went out and infected others. So eventually, the milder version became predominate and that version usually provided immunity to the more serious version.

This one may be doing the same thing. But I also expect that different people react differently to the exact same virus.

Mike

Mike, I agree with different people reacting differently to the same virus.

[Roger Feeley]

Virus mutate quickly and often. In past outbreaks of viral illness, people who had the serious version generally stayed home while those with the milder version went out and infected others. So eventually, the milder version became predominate and that version usually provided immunity to the more serious version.

This one may be doing the same thing. But I also expect that different people react differently to the exact same virus.

Mike

Mike,
that’s the best explanation I’ve seen of what others have said about viruses being less severe over time. It’s basically survival of the least fit.

[Steve Demuth]

Does anyone know if there is clarity at this point on why some people react so adversely to Covid-19 and others do not?

At one point the reporting was that elderly people and/or those with underlying health conditions were in the adverse category and everyone else is not.
Now we know that younger people are not exempt, and in some extreme outlier cases, even children.

But still, my question is why you can have two people of apparently similar health and one is basically asymptomatic, and the other becomes very very sick.
Look at two TV anchors, Chris Cuomo and George Stephanopoulos. Both have announced being Covid-19 positive. Both claim to be healthy, fit guys, and certainly look the part. Yet Cuomo has reported being very sick, down with continuous fever, chills, aches, sicker than he's ever been. Stephanopoulos says he is totally asymptomatic and actually "feels great". And to add to it, Stephanopoulos is 10 years older than Cuomo.

I'm trying to make sense of it. I'm wondering if it could be possible that there are now multiple strains originating from the one virus, or perhaps the virus is mutating as it spreads, becoming less or more lethal. In other words, maybe one person can contract a severe version of Covid-19 and another might only contract the milder version. This is only my speculation, but different strains would explain why people of similar health profiles would have such different experiences.

I'd welcome any insight.
Edwin

First, it is abundantly clear that age is a huge factor. It's true that the virus kills some young adults and some more middle-aged folks. But the likelihood of harm from SARS-CoV2 infection goes from near zero for children, to devastating 15% or more likelihood of death - for those 80+.

There is strong reason to believe that this is tied to differences as people age in how the ACE2 receptor on lung cells behaves. ACE2 (Angiotensin Converting Enzyme) is the binding site for the SARS-CoV2 virus.

There is a strong suspicion that different variants of the ACE2 protein could thus make some people, at any age, significantly more susceptible. So a 30 year old who gets the devastating manifestation of Covid-19 might just have the bad luck of a mutated ACE2 gene.

Lots of research going on about this.

[Edwin Santos]

Virus mutate quickly and often. In past outbreaks of viral illness, people who had the serious version generally stayed home while those with the milder version went out and infected others. So eventually, the milder version became predominate and that version usually provided immunity to the more serious version.

First, it is abundantly clear that age is a huge factor. It's true that the virus kills some young adults and some more middle-aged folks. But the likelihood of harm from SARS-CoV2 infection goes from near zero for children, to devastating 15% or more likelihood of death - for those 80+.

There is strong reason to believe that this is tied to differences as people age in how the ACE2 receptor on lung cells behaves. ACE2 (Angiotensin Converting Enzyme) is the binding site for the SARS-CoV2 virus.

There is a strong suspicion that different variants of the ACE2 protein could thus make some people, at any age, significantly more susceptible. So a 30 year old who gets the devastating manifestation of Covid-19 might just have the bad luck of a mutated ACE2 gene.

Lots of research going on about this.

Natural selection mutating virus strains vs. genetic disposition lottery. Two different but very interesting theses. Perhaps the answer is a combination of both, or something entirely different. It will be very interesting to see what the scientific community concludes. Thanks for the answers,

[Bill Dufour]

I thought it has to do with the initial infection dose. If they get one spore of virus that makes it inside and starts to multiply they will have several days of low grade infection allowing antibodies to be created.
If they get sneezed on and get 1000's of spores in their lungs in one shot they are already several days ahead of the single virus person and have a lot less time before the virus has multiplied enough times to become a problem.
I have read 1-6 hours is the time needed for one virus to double. I assume it is a simple log curve upward until antibodies flatten the curve.
Bil lD.

https://www.livescience.com/8038-vir...l-surfing.html