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Thread: NY Shop

  1. #1

    Question NY Shop

    Hello SMC, long time reader, first time member, first time posting. Iím in the planning stage of a new workshop and am looking for advice and recommendations from this community.

    My future shop is a two car detached garage a little more than 100ft from my home. See pictures below. What you see is all there is to the structure: two overhead doors, three windows, block walls, a partial drywall ceiling, and a roof. No insulation, and the electric you see was disconnected from the main house long before I purchased the property. The dimensions are about 20í by 22í, making 440sqft and about 8ft to the ceiling.

    My goal is a shop that I can work in year round and enough flexibility that it can change easily as my needs change. What would you do with this space? Please tell me where Iím on the right track, where Iíve gone wrong, and what Iím forgetting. Hereís what Iím thinking:

    Walls:

    • moisture barrier (some kind of paint on product?) over the blocks.
    • Rigid foam insulation 1 - 2Ē?
    • Stud walls containing the electrical and fiberglass batts
    • Some kind of plywood or osb covering
    • White paint
    • DC closet


    Electrical:

    • 100 amp sub panel
    • Dedicated Circuits for each of the major machines
    • 120v and 240v receptacles placed readily around the perimeter, wired for flexibility later
    • Some kind of column to deliver power to wherever the table saw ends up
    • Lots of overhead LED lighting


    Ceiling

    • remove the current incomplete drywall ceiling to expose the rafters. This is to make insulation, electrical, and dust collector ducting easier. Also, maybe some storage in the front part of the building.
    • Insulate some how


    HVAC

    • Iím located in upstate NY, so winters can get cold and summers can get hot and humid
    • Electric ceiling mount heater
    • maybe a small wood stove if that chimney can be used.
    • Window AC unit
    • Mini split sometime in the future


    Windows and doors

    • the windows are these weird single pane tilt-in things and should probably be replaced. As they are they will not allow for a window ac unit, and are probably not energy efficient.
    • Replace one of the overhead doors with a man door and a large window. Similar Insulation treatment as the other walls.
    • Seal up the other door so that itís not drafty. Eventually replace with something more insulated


    Floor

    • Not entirely sure what to do here; Iím hesitant to add anything that will effectively make my ceilings lower.
    • I put some concrete sealer down a couple years ago
    • Put some anti fatigue mats down in the places I will stand the most


    Well, thank you for reading this far. I think that this is serving as a way for me to organize my thoughts as much as it is a solicitation for advice. This is a big project and Itís a little overwhelming.

    IMG_2913.jpg
    IMG_2918.jpg

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Look into crystalline concrete additive to paint over the existing blocks. Gas to the shop for heat or a split ac/heatpump.

  3. No moisture barrier on the inside. I would not even paint the block walls if you plan to add studs. Even adding studs is not necessary. You can run your electrical lines with conduit over block walls. It would be nice to be able to insulate the walls and ceilings. My advice there would be to spray foam if at all possible. I would absolutely recommend spray foaming the roof deck and covering the ceiling with drywall or drop ceiling style grid with tiles. I would do a grid with tiles for easy access. I wouldnít do anything with the floor. For HVAC, I would at least start out with a window unit as you mentioned. A mini split would be great but you can get a used 3 ton HVAC unit for under $1,000 and then have a local guy install it for you. For electrical I would get a SquareD homeline 20 space 40 circuit (or 30/40) loadcenter because the breakers are cheap and readily available. I would keep the windows and doors as is or just upgrade to make them cosmetically acceptable.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Two suggestions....agree with replacing OH door with a man door and window (put window wide and short up toward the top of the wall for both security and maintaining wall space. Instead of retaining the second roll-up door, replace it with outward opening carriage doors or a double, pre-hung insulated steel door with security hinges and center pins. That's what I did for my shop building which was originally constructed as a garage structure by the previous property owners.

    Go right to the MiniSpilt for your HVAC. The electric heater will "eat you alive" cost wise. The minisplit will cost you nearly nothing to run (at least mine has) and will provide you with more comfortable year 'round performance.

    BTW, my shop walls started out identical to yours...block walls. Half-stud furring, insulation and then a wall covering is how I took care of it. I used T1-11 for most of the original shop space wall surfaces and OSB for the added space later. I regret using the OSB...splintery, soaked up paint so it required more coats to clean it up, etc.. In the future, I'd use drywall and a French Cleat system if I had the opportunity to build a new shop. I don't screw stuff to the walls indiscriminately, so personally, I don't need plywood walls that can take screws "anywhere".
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 04-16-2020 at 9:08 AM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New York, NY
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    1,838
    Wall construction should be detailed: 2Ē rigid foam (Iíd recommend foil-faced EPS) fastened to CMUs through vertically-mounted furring strips, 1/2Ē drywall to finish. Surface mount electrical using EMT.
    Alternately, you could go with non-combustible insulation like Roxul Rockboard, furring strips, then T-111 or other wood paneling.

    Most 8Ē CMUs have an R1 value so insulation is critical if youíre trying to condition the space.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    Look into crystalline concrete additive to paint over the existing blocks. Gas to the shop for heat or a split ac/heatpump.
    I hadn't seen this crystalline stuff in my research, thanks for pointing it out. It seems like there are a lot of options and opinions on the moisture barrier. I'll keep researching.

    As far as gas for the heat I think that is going to be difficult. My driveway is between the house and future shop. I had it repaved last year, and laid conduit under it for electrical, but didn't make any concessions for running gas.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Robbinett View Post
    No moisture barrier on the inside. I would not even paint the block walls if you plan to add studs. Even adding studs is not necessary. You can run your electrical lines with conduit over block walls. It would be nice to be able to insulate the walls and ceilings. My advice there would be to spray foam if at all possible. I would absolutely recommend spray foaming the roof deck and covering the ceiling with drywall or drop ceiling style grid with tiles. I would do a grid with tiles for easy access. I wouldnít do anything with the floor. For HVAC, I would at least start out with a window unit as you mentioned. A mini split would be great but you can get a used 3 ton HVAC unit for under $1,000 and then have a local guy install it for you. For electrical I would get a SquareD homeline 20 space 40 circuit (or 30/40) loadcenter because the breakers are cheap and readily available. I would keep the windows and doors as is or just upgrade to make them cosmetically acceptable.
    I hadn't really considered surface mounting the electrical, I always looked at that as something you would avoid if you are planning the walls from scratch. But if I do forgo the stud walls as you and others have suggested, then this would be the alternative. I feel like it would get in the way occasionally and wouldn't look all that great.

    I'm curious why you recommend adding the ceiling back in after insulating. I was planning on leaving it out so that I could get as much as I can up between the rafters (lights, DC piping, etc.) It's only 8', so I feel like every inch is gonna count. Is there a benefit to the ceiling besides looks that I'm missing? Perhaps the reflectivity of the white?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Two suggestions....agree with replacing OH door with a man door and window (put window wide and short up toward the top of the wall for both security and maintaining wall space. Instead of retaining the second roll-up door, replace it with outward opening carriage doors or a double, pre-hung insulated steel door with security hinges and center pins. That's what I did for my shop building which was originally constructed as a garage structure by the previous property owners.

    Go right to the MiniSpilt for your HVAC. The electric heater will "eat you alive" cost wise. The minisplit will cost you nearly nothing to run (at least mine has) and will provide you with more comfortable year 'round performance.

    BTW, my shop walls started out identical to yours...block walls. Half-stud furring, insulation and then a wall covering is how I took care of it. I used T1-11 for most of the original shop space wall surfaces and OSB for the added space later. I regret using the OSB...splintery, soaked up paint so it required more coats to clean it up, etc.. In the future, I'd use drywall and a French Cleat system if I had the opportunity to build a new shop. I don't screw stuff to the walls indiscriminately, so personally, I don't need plywood walls that can take screws "anywhere".
    Thanks Jim, I'm really liking these door and window suggestions. All things that I hadn't yet considered. It would be nice to get rid of all of the overhead door tracks. Of course that adds to the expense over just leaving it as is. A big part of this is deciding what needs (or is easier) to be done now and what can be done later. Both to save construction time and expense.

    The delay in the mini-split was another attempt at this, but you're the second person to tell me to forget the electrical heater and get it right off (assuming that gas was out).

    Since you mention that you started out the same as me I'd like to hear more about your wall treatment. Did you do rigid foam directly against the block and then the furring over that or was the insulation between furring? How did you run the electrical? What do you mean by half-stud? Literally ripped in half, or is the 2x4 just turned sideways relative to normal studs?

    Thanks for the advice on OSB, I now recall seeing that downside elsewhere. I like the idea of drywall and French cleats. And in any areas that need the 'screw anywhere' feature you can hang a sheet of ply over or in place of the drywall.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    My insulation is R8 fiberglass, slightly compressed to fit in the ~1.5" space...at the time, I didn't think about using the foam board. Yes, I did rip regular 2x4 studs in half for furring. It was less expensive than buying 2x2 when I was doing the work, despite it being a nasty job ripping construction lumber and I didn't yet know about doing that on the bandsaw as a better way. One additional wall covering option I'll give you is, believe it or not, ZipWall sheets. Yes, they are "OSB" type material, but that textured surface on the "exposure side" does paint up nice and doesn't soak in like on regular OSB. There's also no splintery surface on the "exposure" side with the coating. That said, I'd still do drywall and French cleats if I ever build a new shop.

    On the HVAC, the cost to run the resistance electric heater for one month is likely more than the energy cost to run the MiniSplit for a year...or close to it.

    Here's what I have for my door and window setup. You'll note that on the end of the building, there's a huge "picture window". It's now closed off on the inside except for the top foot. I did it that way so it preserves the big window for a future owner and I didn't need to spend money for a new, narrow height window. The two "garage" doors on the shop section of the building were replaced with double, insulated steel doors, outward opening as I mentioned.

    IMG_7194.jpg
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    My insulation is R8 fiberglass, slightly compressed to fit in the ~1.5" space...at the time, I didn't think about using the foam board. Yes, I did rip regular 2x4 studs in half for furring. It was less expensive than buying 2x2 when I was doing the work, despite it being a nasty job ripping construction lumber and I didn't yet know about doing that on the bandsaw as a better way. One additional wall covering option I'll give you is, believe it or not, ZipWall sheets. Yes, they are "OSB" type material, but that textured surface on the "exposure side" does paint up nice and doesn't soak in like on regular OSB. There's also no splintery surface on the "exposure" side with the coating. That said, I'd still do drywall and French cleats if I ever build a new shop.

    On the HVAC, the cost to run the resistance electric heater for one month is likely more than the energy cost to run the MiniSplit for a year...or close to it.
    A couple of comments Jim. Don't paint all OSB with the same brush (no pun intended) The stuff (not Zip) I used in my shop is rough & splintery on one side, but very smooth on the other. Two light coats of paint are all it took to cover beautifully. The resulting surface is bright & tough as nails.

    On the heat pump vs resistance heating, I think you need to check your math. What I've read tells me that the heat pump has an "efficiency" of 200% - 350%, while resistance is only 100%.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pratt View Post
    On the heat pump vs resistance heating, I think you need to check your math. What I've read tells me that the heat pump has an "efficiency" of 200% - 350%, while resistance is only 100%.
    I haven't done any math, but I do know what the 240v 30amp Farenheat unit was costing me for just weekend use vs my MiniSplit not even "blipping" our electric consumption running 100% of the time at 64ļ all winter long. The former was easily costing me $50-75 a month for part time use...I know that because I was reimbursing Professor Dr. SWMBO monthly since utilities are on her side of our budget. The MiniSplit is incredibly efficient...especially with a well-insulated space.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    My insulation is R8 fiberglass, slightly compressed to fit in the ~1.5" space...at the time, I didn't think about using the foam board. Yes, I did rip regular 2x4 studs in half for furring. It was less expensive than buying 2x2 when I was doing the work, despite it being a nasty job ripping construction lumber and I didn't yet know about doing that on the bandsaw as a better way. One additional wall covering option I'll give you is, believe it or not, ZipWall sheets. Yes, they are "OSB" type material, but that textured surface on the "exposure side" does paint up nice and doesn't soak in like on regular OSB. There's also no splintery surface on the "exposure" side with the coating. That said, I'd still do drywall and French cleats if I ever build a new shop.

    On the HVAC, the cost to run the resistance electric heater for one month is likely more than the energy cost to run the MiniSplit for a year...or close to it.

    Here's what I have for my door and window setup. You'll note that on the end of the building, there's a huge "picture window". It's now closed off on the inside except for the top foot. I did it that way so it preserves the big window for a future owner and I didn't need to spend money for a new, narrow height window. The two "garage" doors on the shop section of the building were replaced with double, insulated steel doors, outward opening as I mentioned.

    IMG_7194.jpg
    Jim- instead of ripping 2x4’s couldn’t you just turn them sideways to frame the walls?

  13. #13
    Matthew, I think you should certainly insulate the walls and ceiling to lower your energy costs. I donít see any point in having a drop ceiling of any kind. You can hang led light fixtures at any distance you want without a drop ceiling.

  14. #14
    Yes there are lots of used HVAC units available . I'm trying to get rid of my 4 Ton Carrier right now . Why ? Can't afford to run it ! One season of not running it paid for 2 Mini Splits . In your shop , a good mini will provide most of your heating needs , NOT ALL . How about propane for Dec. thru Feb. supplemental heat ? It's an option .

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Daily View Post
    Jim- instead of ripping 2x4’s couldn’t you just turn them sideways to frame the walls?
    Sure...at double the price and having to cut down the insulation to custom width to account for the narrower space between the "studs" because they are twice as wide.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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