Sharpening Plane Irons and Chisels, Sandpaper?

[Jon Middleton]

Flatten your coarsest waterstone however you like and then use it to flatten your other finer stones. Rinse them all and off you go. Sandpaper is expensive, a bit annoying to use and pretty messy. My opinion only. But I do use it on granite to flatten my 800 grit stone.

I tried fine drywall screens but they didn't last very long. Same story with wet dry sandpaper. I wonder about the Double-Time stone from Sharpening Supplies. It will require flattening too after a time, which isn't great. Sounds like the Trend products aren't very flat. Any thoughts on the Atoma, DMT or the Shaptons?

[Andrew Nemeth]

The Atom 400 ‘whetstone’ that I have is quite flat and works well for me to flatten my Shapton GlassStones. I use the Atoma 400 to flatten my 1000 GlassStone, then I use the 1000 to flatten the 4000, and the 4000 to flatten the 8000. I have used the Atoma to flatten my 4000 and 8000 GlassStones too, but Atoma just seems to eats too much of each stone and the finer stones get considerably more expensive. I’m not sure which way is better or less expensive, but my feeling is that both methods work about the same and I’m preserving my more valuable stones. Maybe someone else can chime in on that because, as I’ve said, I’m not sure which method is better.

Atoma is a bit of a unique product as they are constructed with a flat plate that a much thinner diamond impregnated layer is layered on top of. The diamond impregnated layer is removable for replacement and is available by itself. I believe some people have just purchased the replacement layer(s) and adhered to the substrate of their choice. I’m considering getting a coarser replacement sheet to add to the back side of my Atoma plate for flattening chisel and plane blade backs as I do a bit of tool restoration.

As for cost, that is the reason went the Atoma route. As of 3 years ago, it seemed like the best value for me. There are probably superior flattening products on the market, both diamond sharpening plates and purpose built flattening plates, but the cost of some of those products was more than the cost of the three stones I own. If I remember right, there was another diamond product that was comparable price wise (maybe something from DMT) but the quality control for flatness was suspect. Since I was ordering online, I went with the Atoma instead of rolling the dice and potentially having to deal with returns. You can pick up the Atoma “whetstones” on Amazon. I’m sure I didn’t pay more than $50 for mine when I purchased it 3 years ago.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing and how it works out for you.

[Jon Middleton]

I ordered the Double Time Flattening Stone today. But in the meantime, I finally got around to trimming a piece of granite that had been the kitchen backsplash before a remodel. It' about 21"x21", so a nice large, flat surface to work on. I used a drywall screen and was able to get all four surfaces flat enough. Each one would stick to the others with water. The screen left some scratches, so I finished the 3000 and 8000 grit stones with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I was able to sharpen three chef knives to cutting newspaper.

The guy a Sharpening Supplies said that the DTFS will last three years with normal use. I may start with the drywall screens first and thereby slow the wear on the DTFS. The Norton Flattening stone is cheaper at $32. The DMT diamond lapping plates are $200, but you need two of them as one will only do under 1000 grit, the other 1000 grit and above.

[David Bassett]

I ordered the Double Time Flattening Stone today...

So, you drop $50 on a stone that will wear instead of a $55 diamond plate that is well regarded and used by many or the Atoma diamond plate used by many more (most?) which I just saw on Amazon for $65?

Interesting.

... but you need two of them as one will only do under 1000 grit, the other 1000 grit and above.

That is not my experience, nor the experience reported by most people I've heard state a preference. In fact the only people I know seriously advocating multiple grits of diamond plates literally have thousands of dollars of stones and are either trying to optimize a specific stone for a specific purpose or just treat multiple plates to play with as a negligible cost. Confused as to the authority that specified this is a "need".

[ken hatch]

Norton makes a flattening stone, also made of Silicon Carbide. You might want to do a search of SMC to read reviews. BTW, I read the "Double Time Flattening Stone" promotional material. Two things about that material, one stated and one not: the DTFS is not for use on Arkansas stones because it is not hard enough. The not stated part or at least I didn't see it was after the first use how do you keep the DTFS flat.

The Norton stone is worthless, I expect the DTFS is the same.

ken

[Chris Fournier]

I tried fine drywall screens but they didn't last very long. Same story with wet dry sandpaper. I wonder about the Double-Time stone from Sharpening Supplies. It will require flattening too after a time, which isn't great. Sounds like the Trend products aren't very flat. Any thoughts on the Atoma, DMT or the Shaptons?

I've never used those brands Jon.

[Jon Middleton]

So, you drop $50 on a stone that will wear instead of a $55 diamond plate that is well regarded and used by many or the Atoma diamond plate used by many more (most?) which I just saw on Amazon for $65?

Interesting.




That is not my experience, nor the experience reported by most people I've heard state a preference. In fact the only people I know seriously advocating multiple grits of diamond plates literally have thousands of dollars of stones and are either trying to optimize a specific stone for a specific purpose or just treat multiple plates to play with as a negligible cost. Confused as to the authority that specified this is a "need".

The diamond lapping plates I saw are the DMT, which include the Dia-Flat, recommended for waterstones coarser than 1000 grit:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/D...-P412C111.aspx

and the Dia-Flat 95, which is recommended for waterstones 1000 grit and finer:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/D...-P451C111.aspx

The recommendation for two plates came from David at Sharpening supplies, because the regular Dia-Plate leaves scratches on the finer stones.

The Shapton is $400, highly recommended by Rob Cosman:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/S...-P237C111.aspx

I have not seen a $50 diamond lapping plate.

[Jon Middleton]

Norton makes a flattening stone, also made of Silicon Carbide. You might want to do a search of SMC to read reviews. BTW, I read the "Double Time Flattening Stone" promotional material. Two things about that material, one stated and one not: the DTFS is not for use on Arkansas stones because it is not hard enough. The not stated part or at least I didn't see it was after the first use how do you keep the DTFS flat.

The Norton stone is worthless, I expect the DTFS is the same.

ken

I won't use the DTFS on anything besides waterstones. I hear that it's possible to flatten the DTFS, but it's supposed to stay fat for several years. As I said above, I can prolong its useful life by flattening the waterstones with drywall screens first.

[David Bassett]

... I have not seen a $50 diamond lapping plate.

$55. Post #9 in this thread:

I'd argue not in the long run. Many options for diamond flatten plates. Atoma plates, while not perfect and not the cheapest, are generally well respected for flattening. Some people have reported good luck with the really cheap generic plates from China. Others have reported problems, e.g. not flat or poorly bonded diamonds.

I really like Japanese Knife Imports' store brand diamond flattening plate. Cheaper than Atoma, (unless Amazon has a stupid cheap moment,) and I know and trust the owner, Jon, to insure the quality:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...attening-plate

Their store front is shutdown with Los Angeles' shutdown / shelter orders, but they've been allowed to resume shipping.

Amazon popped up one of the Atoma's for $64 several days ago. (It might be $120 today, they & their 3rd party vendors make pricing weird.) You can search there if you're really curious.

You ask here, many people took the time to answer, and then you appear to have ignored them and listened to the sales guy. (BTDT, got a box of stones out in the garage I keep saying I should sell, but honestly can't figure out why anyone would want them for even the cost of shipping. )

[Jon Middleton]

$55. Post #9 in this thread:


Amazon popped up one of the Atoma's for $64 several days ago. (It might be $120 today, they & their 3rd party vendors make pricing weird.) You can search there if you're really curious.

You ask here, many people took the time to answer, and then you appear to have ignored them and listened to the sales guy. (BTDT, got a box of stones out in the garage I keep saying I should sell, but honestly can't figure out why anyone would want them for even the cost of shipping. )

That's a bit harsh. I looked at that plate, it says to not use it on 400 grit stones. I didn't ignore it, was just looking for one plate do flatten all my waterstones. Maybe I'll look at it again. Not sure about the Atoma, don't really care too much for the replaceable sheets. It's $73 on Amazon today, replacement sheets are $80 for four? Maybe that would be better.

[Tim Nguyen]

I just recently went down a similar path, so I will share my limited experiences. I tried the water stones and the diamond plates. I personally settle on the diamond plate after gouging my water stones. I was using Naniwa Chosera water stone since I had 800, 1000, and 3000. I next tried the Ultra Sharp stone kit. I like them and the wider size made it nice. They were heavy and stay put.

But than I tried the super cheap thin diamond stones. For example from this guy. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I got the 400, 800, 2000, and 3000. Follow up with a super cheap 6000 water stone. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Advantages:
Cheap, cheap, cheap.
It works and cuts and polish nicely. I can shave hair afterward, but I stop testing on myself. Just a few passes on the stropping leather helps.
Disadvantages:
Thin. make sure it is well supported. I made a sharpening station a la Paul Sellers. The plywood backer helps support it and stops splashing little grit spot on my admittedly throw away bench top. Hummm, maybe I should think about that....
I found the 400 grit has worn down some, but still cuts well. Maybe closer to the 800 now. Full disclosure, I did abuse the 400 when I started. Did I say cheap, cheap?

I found keep a consistent grounding angle was harder. I upgraded to the Veritas honing guide and it has been good. If I was doing a do over, I would rather use the Lie Nielsen guide. The Veritas is finicky with the angle projection. I tried using some stop blocks, but found I skew the blades and have to readjust.

[Rafael Herrera]

I started with waterstones, the hassle of keeping them flat and all the dancing around with different grits made me look for something else. I switched to a Washita and a strop for most of my routine sharpening. Be cautious of the advise of internet gurus that may have a financial stake on what you buy.

[ken hatch]

I started with waterstones, the hassle of keeping them flat and all the dancing around with different grits made me look for something else. I switched to a Washita and a strop for most of my routine sharpening. Be cautious of the advise of internet gurus that may have a financial stake on what you buy.

Rafael,

Smart move, one, two or even three Arkansas stones will likely cost less than one of the high tech water stones and if you are not sharpening thick A2 cutters are probably faster if you count all the prep work on the water stones and they get the cutter just as sharp. The bonus is those stones will last your life time and likely your grandkids life time.

Full disclosure: I have sharpening round heels and love to use/play with different stones including way too many JNats, a number of different synthetic water stones, most of the different make diamond stones and oil stones. Of the lot when I'm serious about sharpening the cutter to do some work the Pike Lilly White Washita, the Norton Hard White, and the Dan's Hard Black come out to play. The only stones that work as well as the Arkansas stones are the JNats and there is an order of magnitude or two difference in cost.

BTW, there is a lot of sharpening sizzle and little steak being sold.

ken

[Jon Middleton]

I started with waterstones, the hassle of keeping them flat and all the dancing around with different grits made me look for something else. I switched to a Washita and a strop for most of my routine sharpening. Be cautious of the advise of internet gurus that may have a financial stake on what you buy.

Hi Rafael, I'm circling back to your way of thinking. I bought waterstones for our kitchen knives after watching a bunch of videos put out by the guy at Burrfection. He doesn't flatten his stones because he doesn't thin it's necessary. Maybe not for knives, but sharpening plane irons and chisels requires a flat surface. I bought a nice little Veritas block plane a little bit ago so I could trim the splines off flush on some picture frames I've been making. So, deeper dive than really necessary into planes, sharpening, etc. Watched lots of Rob Cosman videos.

I had a couple of Norton combination aluminum oxide stones along with a couple of nice Washita stones for over 20 years, but somehow they disappeared in a kitchen remodel. I think I'm going to buy an oil stone system, as I agree that the waterstones require more flattening than they're worth. They do fine for kitchen knives, though. There's a guy, Stefan Wolf, on youtube, who gets more than satisfactory results with his oil stones, which seem much less finicky than waterstones. So, my question is, any ideas on a complete oil stone system for sharpening? I plan on starting with a replacement Norton JB8, or maybe the Crystolon, then add one or two natural stones. Been looking at the Natural Whetstone website and it looks like a solid company. Ideas?

[ken hatch]

Hi Rafael, I'm circling back to your way of thinking. I bought waterstones for our kitchen knives after watching a bunch of videos put out by the guy at Burrfection. He doesn't flatten his stones because he doesn't thin it's necessary. Maybe not for knives, but sharpening plane irons and chisels requires a flat surface. I bought a nice little Veritas block plane a little bit ago so I could trim the splines off flush on some picture frames I've been making. So, deeper dive than really necessary into planes, sharpening, etc. Watched lots of Rob Cosman videos.

I had a couple of Norton combination aluminum oxide stones along with a couple of nice Washita stones for over 20 years, but somehow they disappeared in a kitchen remodel. I think I'm going to buy an oil stone system, as I agree that the waterstones require more flattening than they're worth. They do fine for kitchen knives, though. There's a guy, Stefan Wolf, on youtube, who gets more than satisfactory results with his oil stones, which seem much less finicky than waterstones. So, my question is, any ideas on a complete oil stone system for sharpening? I plan on starting with a replacement Norton JB8, or maybe the Crystolon, then add one or two natural stones. Been looking at the Natural Whetstone website and it looks like a solid company. Ideas?

Jon,

I'm going to jump in and add my thoughts as your question is in my wheelhouse. First, I've never dealt with Natural Whetstone, they may be a good company or not but some of the sellers are better at the patter than the walk. I have many stones from Dan's and from Dan's you get what you paid for.

A natural oil stone is not good for grinding for that a course or medium India works well and is very cheap. For honing and polishing I use three stones (truth is two stones would work just as well). The three stones are first a Washita, followed by a Hard White Arkansas from Norton, then final polishing on a Dan's (Ultra Fine) Black Arkansas. Of the three stone rotation either the Washita or the Hard White could be skipped with little effect on the quality of the edge.

Translucent stones are pretty but they cost more and I've never found one that will polish as well or better than the Black Arkansas. One thing to remember about oil stones, they are natural stones and all will be slightly different. I have several Black Arkansas stones but the one I use daily is special and will go to the grave clutched to my breast.

ken

ken