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Thread: Harbor Freight Dust Collector circuit pops

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by David L Morse View Post
    There's no label. See this post for more information.
    Mine actually does have a label on it. I don’t see how to add a pic here but the label says:

    Central Machinery model #45378 Dust Collector 70g, 2hp
    Motor: 2hp, 20 amps peak, single phase 60 Hz, 110V
    RPMs: 3450
    Power Cord: 5 1/2 feet, 16AWG x 3C Gauge

  2. #17
    I found the following info with google. I’m curious if the impeller upgrade is causing an too much draw on startup.
    https://manuals.harborfreight.com/ma...7999/97869.pdf

    does not appear to be another wiring option aside from the 120
    2C027298-3C9B-4AC5-A84D-BF43AB1DAD18.jpg
    I am curious if you upsized the intake pipe as well
    Last edited by Steve Fish; 04-11-2020 at 3:14 PM.

  3. #18
    Whoops, I did not see page two Craig. You’re one step ahead

  4. #19
    I have the 2hp HF wall mounted above a super dust deputy and discharging outside. I am using the original impeller (but am thinking of upgrading to the Rikon). I have had no breaker trips and sometimes turn it on and off without it spinning down in between. I would try another breaker, as has been mentioned. If that didn't solve it, I might try going back to the stock impeller. While I wouldn't turn down a little more, my airflow isn't bad.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Fish View Post
    I found the following info with google. I’m curious if the impeller upgrade is causing an too much draw on startup.
    https://manuals.harborfreight.com/ma...7999/97869.pdf

    does not appear to be another wiring option aside from the 120
    2C027298-3C9B-4AC5-A84D-BF43AB1DAD18.jpg
    I am curious if you upsized the intake pipe as well
    The new impeller is definitely bigger and heavier and many YouTube videos I’ve watched have documented the additional current draw (and additional performance!). I have not heard of issues like I’ve had though and I would bet most of those you tubers are using 20a outlets, but then again maybe some folks just don’t shut it down and start it up again like I did.

    I did upsize the intake. I’m using a super dust deputy which has a 6” outlet on top, so I cut out the old DC intake flange and added a 6” take off. I also matched the dust deputy inlet by using 5” pipe, which necks down to 4” only at the drops to my different machines. It’s a good setup and while I’ve barely had a chance to use it, it can definitely suck some air! I’m exhausting into a 13” diameter Wynn filter with a homemade box under it with a door for emptying if necessary.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dwight View Post
    I have the 2hp HF wall mounted above a super dust deputy and discharging outside. I am using the original impeller (but am thinking of upgrading to the Rikon). I have had no breaker trips and sometimes turn it on and off without it spinning down in between. I would try another breaker, as has been mentioned. If that didn't solve it, I might try going back to the stock impeller. While I wouldn't turn down a little more, my airflow isn't bad.
    That is really good info that you don’t have the tripping problem. I’m starting to wonder if the centrifugal switch is bad on my unit. I did buy it used for only like $30 :-) and it’s definitely seen some use. But like I said, it starts up just fine from a standstill and seems to run strong, albeit with an occasional squeal here and there that don’t seem to be a big deal.

    In terms of another breaker, do you mean upsizing it to 25a with the same wiring? I checked and the dual breaker in single slot style I used to add two 20a circuits (one dedicated to the DC) just seems to come in a 20/30 combo. Rewiring with 10ga wire is not an easy task at this point. I could potentially swap the dual 20/20 for a single 20 and single 25 (for the DC), which would force me to convert a couple other breakers into a dual due to no more space in my panel!

  7. #22
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Andresen View Post
    That is really good info that you don’t have the tripping problem. I’m starting to wonder if the centrifugal switch is bad on my unit. I did buy it used for only like $30 :-) and it’s definitely seen some use. But like I said, it starts up just fine from a standstill and seems to run strong, albeit with an occasional squeal here and there that don’t seem to be a big deal.

    In terms of another breaker, do you mean upsizing it to 25a with the same wiring? I checked and the dual breaker in single slot style I used to add two 20a circuits (one dedicated to the DC) just seems to come in a 20/30 combo. Rewiring with 10ga wire is not an easy task at this point. I could potentially swap the dual 20/20 for a single 20 and single 25 (for the DC), which would force me to convert a couple other breakers into a dual due to no more space in my panel!

    I would not go up to a 30 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire. I personally would have no problem with a 25 amp breaker on a 12 gauge wire DEDICATED circuit for a motor that acts like yours is. Probably best solution is to get some amp readings on it so you are not guessing an know exactly what is going on.
    This might help if you don't have an clamp on amp meter, I have not used it before always use a meter.
    Good luck
    Ron
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/100A-AC-Dig....c100677.m4598

  8. #23
    So today I opened the motor up as far as I could without taking piping off and removing this beast from the wall (which isn’t much). Wiring in the switch looks good, the capacitor looks fine, and while I was able to remove the metal fan cover, I couldn’t get the plastic fan to slide off the shaft to look at the centrifugal switch which I think is under that side.

    Long story short, I saw no visible issues so got to work making some last adapters for piping up some of my tools. When I switched the DC on, the breaker now blew immediately! I reset it and tried again and it kicked in and ran fine. Turned it off a bit later and did some other things and came back and tried to use it again and the breaker blew immediately again! Something clearly is not right as this has gotten worse. There’s far too many people that have used the Rikon impeller for it to be just related to that.

    I found good directions for checking the Cap so I’ll try that tomorrow. I’m wondering if that’s the culprit now. If not, I’ll keep trying. Lemme know if anyone has any ideas based on the new issues.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Andresen View Post
    ...Motor: 2hp, 20 amps peak,...
    Wow, PEAK. So HF is now rating their dust collector like a shopvac or router. It's certainly possible to make it draw 20A with the 12" fan. Just do this:

    Config1uN.jpg

    That's ten feet of six inch test pipe with a bell mouth entrance on the inlet. In that configuration the fan moves over 1100CFM and the motor draws a bit over 20A. It won't do that for very long. Maybe an hour until the motor smokes?

    ... dual breaker in single slot style I used to add two 20a circuits (one dedicated to the DC)...
    I wonder if tandem breakers have the same time delay curves as full size. It might be worth trying a single breaker.

    I didn't post this before because it's a bit obtuse but I'll try to clear up what I can:



    This is part of the trip curve for a SquareD QO series breaker, the type I use. The horizontal axis represents a multiple of the rated trip current. That is, for a 20A breaker, "1" means 20A, "2" means 40A, etc. The breaker will trip for time and current values to the right of the Grey zone and hold for values to the left. The Grey zone is the tolerance range over age, temperature, and manufacturing variations.

    I added my measured time/current values. The Red ones are for starting the motor with everything open. Green is for sealed. Any realistic situation will fall between these extremes.

    I also tested the effect of extension cords. Unlike a running motor the start current will decrease with additional voltage loss. The highest values are for no extension cord.

    The point of this is that it's only a matter of luck that I can start this fan without tripping the breaker.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Andresen View Post
    So today I opened the motor up as far as I could without taking piping off and removing this beast from the wall (which isn’t much). Wiring in the switch looks good, the capacitor looks fine, and while I was able to remove the metal fan cover, I couldn’t get the plastic fan to slide off the shaft to look at the centrifugal switch which I think is under that side.

    Long story short, I saw no visible issues so got to work making some last adapters for piping up some of my tools. When I switched the DC on, the breaker now blew immediately! I reset it and tried again and it kicked in and ran fine. Turned it off a bit later and did some other things and came back and tried to use it again and the breaker blew immediately again! Something clearly is not right as this has gotten worse. There’s far too many people that have used the Rikon impeller for it to be just related to that.

    I found good directions for checking the Cap so I’ll try that tomorrow. I’m wondering if that’s the culprit now. If not, I’ll keep trying. Lemme know if anyone has any ideas based on the new issues.
    I would almost bet money that it is the centrifugal switch. I have a couple of the HF 2hp dust collectors and both had times when the centrifugal switches needed adjusting. See if there is an electric motor shop in your area and pull the motor and take it to them to test it out. I think that my local shop charged me something like $40 to redo the centrifugal switch. Have you tried using a new double pole 20amp or a new double pole 25amp breaker? That might be your problem there. I have been considering upgrading my HF dust collectors with the Rikon impeller. Just not sure that the performance upgrade is worth the time and money. It might be, but I haven’t researched it enough to know for sure. I know that the stock filter bags drastically reduce performance after they get dirty but instead of a Wynn style cartridge filter I plan to vent mine outside as that is even better than a cartridge filter when it comes to performance.

  11. #26
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    With the breaker tripping immediately like that sure seems like the centrifugal switch is hanging open. Try changing the capacitor 1st just because of all the additional work to get the motor down. Might get lucky but don't think so
    Good luck
    Ron

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Selzer View Post
    With the breaker tripping immediately like that sure seems like the centrifugal switch is hanging open.
    If Craig really means immediately, as in instantaneous, then I think there's a bigger problem than just the starting components. If the centrifugal switch sticks open the locked rotor current is less than with it properly closed. At the lower current level the breaker should hold for an even longer time before tripping. More than three seconds for sure since it can, sometimes at least, hold that at full LRC.

    If the breaker is tripping instantly the current is high enough to activate the magnetic trip function. That usually requires about ten times the rated current, or in this case about 200A.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  13. #28
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    Location
    Modesto, CA, USA
    Posts
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    20FLA is how I read peak amps. 1.25 times 20 amps =25 amp breaker minuiumum size. You need to upgrade to a 30 amp breaker and wiring. I do not think you will be able to find a 25 amp breaker or 25 amp wire so just step up to 30 amp which is a common size.
    Or switch the motor to 240 volts and amps will drop to 10. 1.25 times 10amps is 12.5 amps so a 20 amp breaker will be fine.
    Bil lD

  14. #29
    A couple of updates today:
    1) The dust collector wouldn't even turn on today. Just blows the breaker immediately upon switching it on. As I mentioned above, yesterday it would blow at first attempt and then start up at the 2nd attempt after resetting the breaker. No such luck today, but it seems like further evidence of a motor issue.
    2) I tested the capacitor using the method described at about the 2:45 mark of this video from Grizzly. Rather than the Ohm reading continuing to climb, mine slowly climbed to just 2.5 ohms and stopped. I think that tells me that I have a bad capacitor. Based on that, I cut one of the wires and tested it disconnected per the instructions at 4:45 of this video testing capacitance directly, and get no reading. Of course, based on the info towards the end of the Grizzly video, the reason I have a bad cap could be because I have an issue with the centrifugal switch and thus replacing the cap could mean I just ruin another cap. I think I'm going to try it though if I can find one I can get pretty quickly on Amazon.





  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by David L Morse View Post
    If Craig really means immediately, as in instantaneous, then I think there's a bigger problem than just the starting components. If the centrifugal switch sticks open the locked rotor current is less than with it properly closed. At the lower current level the breaker should hold for an even longer time before tripping. More than three seconds for sure since it can, sometimes at least, hold that at full LRC.

    If the breaker is tripping instantly the current is high enough to activate the magnetic trip function. That usually requires about ten times the rated current, or in this case about 200A.
    It's instantaneous. I flip the switch and the breaker pops.

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