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Thread: I Need Help With Alcohol...

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Utterback View Post
    I responded to Jim's post above yours before seeing yours. I would absolutely discourage using commercial grade DNA as a skin sanitizer. It is likely that people could use it multiple times a day and the skin absorption would be significant. If it contains methanol, the nervous system health hazard could be irreversible. I am less familiar with the toxic effects of other denaturing agents but would certainly obtain the SDS before using it daily for any purpose including woodworking applications with minimal skin contact.

    BTW, I spent my career as an occupational health scientist with over 20 years at NIOSH.
    I've highlighted my line about not recommending using DNA for hand sanitizer in my post above. I really wasn't suggesting using it, but I am fascinated by what proportion of methanol is absorbed through skin. The same thing about DMSO. It just amazes me that these chemicals can be absorbed through the skin, which is a pretty impervious barrier. Of course, nicotine patches, fentanyl patches, and organophosphate insecticides, organic solvents can be absorbed through the skin, which i do find fascinating.

    Anyway, don't want to further hijack the thread. I've had no issues dissolving shellac with Green Kleen-Strip, and it's been my go to solvent for that. It does take a while, and I use a bottle of the mixture floating in microwaved water, but it always has worked for me.
    You're like the door closing button on an elevator. Comforting but not necessarily effective.

    After cancellations this year, I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun.

  2. #47
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    The skin is a much more effective barrier for water type (polar) substances than for non-polar organic (i.e. lipophylic or fat loving) compounds for the most part. Essentially for DNA, what does not evaporate is absorbed by the skin. The drugs you mention as well as most pesticides are designed to penetrate cell membranes so they are readily distributed to the target cells.
    Rustic? Well, no. That was not my intention!

  3. #48
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    Alan, methanol is nasty stuff. I used normal DNA years ago with an organics full face mask, gloves, etc and still had enough exposure somehow that I felt ill for weeks.

    I wouldn’t touch it, I have everclear for making shellac now after high quality high % ethanol DNA but I don’t bother anymore. The $20 saved isn’t worth it.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  4. #49
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Alan, methanol is nasty stuff. I used normal DNA years ago with an organics full face mask, gloves, etc and still had enough exposure somehow that I felt ill for weeks.

    I wouldn’t touch it, I have everclear for making shellac now after high quality high % ethanol DNA but I don’t bother anymore. The $20 saved isn’t worth it.
    Once this all calms down, I'll see if I can get some. It used to be impossible in Florida, but now I think the laws may have changed a few years ago.

    I don't use too much shellac these days, but it's the best stuff I've found for cleaning our wood floors (Bona just leaves a film and screws them up, but that's another story.) Having a robot clean our floors with high quality, high % ethanol DNA when we're not in the room doesn't really concern me much.
    You're like the door closing button on an elevator. Comforting but not necessarily effective.

    After cancellations this year, I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    I've highlighted my line about not recommending using DNA for hand sanitizer in my post above. I really wasn't suggesting using it, but I am fascinated by what proportion of methanol is absorbed through skin. The same thing about DMSO. It just amazes me that these chemicals can be absorbed through the skin, which is a pretty impervious barrier. Of course, nicotine patches, fentanyl patches, and organophosphate insecticides, organic solvents can be absorbed through the skin, which i do find fascinating.

    Anyway, don't want to further hijack the thread. I've had no issues dissolving shellac with Green Kleen-Strip, and it's been my go to solvent for that. It does take a while, and I use a bottle of the mixture floating in microwaved water, but it always has worked for me.
    Human skin is not a barrier at all from chemicals. Besides absorbing the toxic chemicals, alcohol based products readily absorb into the skin because it strips oils from the skin too. Farmers are required to handle horrible chemicals, every protection seminar starts by telling them what a horrible barrier skin is, followed by the requirement to wear rubber gloves (not thin nitrile). The chemicals go right to the bodies filters, liver and kidneys. Then the instructor talks about farmers taking a piss in the fields after handling the chemicals. Now there is some thin skin filled with blood flow very close to the surface. My younger brother died at the age of 48 from colon cancer. My Dad and he both ignored so many chemical protections. My Dad always complained how some of them gave him diarrhea. Dad died at the age of 61, brother at 48. How many 48 year olds are filled with cancer from the brain to the colon? Plus our family had no history of cancer until my brother.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Blue View Post
    I was wondering if the retail stores might add to the label cautions by posting a notice that dna should not be used as a skin sanitizer. Many retailers are posting notices that 3 months ago had not entered their minds.
    Rustic? Well, no. That was not my intention!

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Arita View Post
    So can Everclear be used just like Denatured, isopropyl? Is it all the same?
    Ethanol alcohol is distilled from fermented plants and grains. It's the stuff people drink. The "proof" is the percentage of alcohol x 2: 100 proof is 50% alcohol.
    You can buy 200 proof ethanol (anhydrous, no significant amount of water) from laboratory supply houses for scientific use. Google 200 proof ethanol. I use it for cleaning lenses.
    You can buy 190 proof (95% ethanol) from a liquor store. It is an expensive way to buy alcohol for the shop. I use it to make vanilla extract from vanilla beans.
    Denatured is ethanol with a chemical added to make it undrinkable. In the last few years many supplier have been adding methanol which is bad stuff to even get on your skin.

    Isopropyl alcohol is completely different than ethanol. I buy 99% isopropyl by the gallon at the farm store. I haven't tried mixing it with shellac since I have gallons of DNA on hand but I read it will work fine.

    JKJ
    Last edited by John K Jordan; 04-11-2020 at 11:49 PM.

  9. #54
    I've heard that drinkable grain alcohol for medical use can be sold without the high tax if it is sold "flavored" with Bitrex,
    "the world's most bitter substance". Bitrex can be bought on eBay and is a great way to keep deer from eating your
    plants.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    Isopropyl alcohol is completely different than ethanol. I buy 99% isopropyl by the gallon at the farm store. I haven't tried mixing it with shellac since I have gallons of DNA on hand but I read it will work fine.

    JKJ
    I don't know if this is a problem where you live, but in hot and dry climates shellac can dry problematically fast. I have found that 99% Isopropyl helps retard the drying time and encourages shellac to flow out better in comparison to DNA. For this reason alone, I prefer Isopropyl. And the added benefit is avoiding the toxicity of DNA that has been discussed above.

    Regarding dry time, adding a small amount <5% of lacquer retarder will help slow it down further if needed.

  11. #56
    So, here's another question...I have some 62% alcohol hand sanitizer. Can I add 91% Isopropyl Alcohol to it to bring it up to 70% and if so, how much would I have to add? It's the gel type, with aloe and stuff.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Arita View Post
    So, here's another question...I have some 62% alcohol hand sanitizer. Can I add 91% Isopropyl Alcohol to it to bring it up to 70% and if so, how much would I have to add? It's the gel type, with aloe and stuff.
    I don't remember the details of mixing alcohols and I don't know if there are any special considerations for mixing ethanol and isopropyl alcohol, but basically mixing solutions to get a different solution is a bit of algebra. There is plenty on the web but I found a simple calculator for you:
    https://www.1728.org/mixture.htm

    First, important, click on B to set the calculator to changing the concentration of a solution.
    Enter the volume of the solution you have in "Solution 1 volume" (whatever it is)
    Enter the concentration of your existing solution in "Solution 1 concentration" (62 in your case)
    Enter the concentration of what you are adding in "Solution 2 concentration" (91 in your case)
    Enter the desired concentration in "Solution 3 concentration" (70, you said)
    Then click "Calculate" to get the volume of the 91% to add to get 70% concentration

    The math is given lower on the page. It's pretty simple so you might just skip the calculator.

    But you might first want to check into the chemistry of mixing alcohols.

    A pharmacist told me the minimum recommended concentration for killing viruses was 60%.

    JKJ

  13. #58
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    The alcohols should be completely miscible, i.e. they will not separate at any concentration.
    Rustic? Well, no. That was not my intention!

  14. #59
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    Denatured alcohol is not banned statewide in California. It is banned in many/most of the most densely populated "air quality control districts", but is available elsewhere in California.

    Having said that, my hardware store has been unable to get DNA for the last month due to demand because of the virus.

    I live seven miles outside of the Bay Area Air Quality Management District. Denatured alcohol (Kleen Strip) is normly available here at Ace Hardware in gallon and quart cans. It was banned within the BAAQMD for VOC reasons on 1 Jan 2019. The air quality control district boundaries affect numerous things: car exhaust testing, lacquer thinner, varnish, wood-burning fireplaces on some days, etc.

  15. #60
    Just to wrap this up I thought I'd tell you how this ended up. I ended up driving 2 hours to Reno, Nevada, where denatured alcohol can be purchased. I went to HD and bought 6 gallons of the stuff. Fortunately I had 2 gift cards to cover the cost. It was actually a nice drive and I got enough DNA to last me quite a while. Thanks for all you input.

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