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Thread: $5k to start my woodshop

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Hillestad View Post
    Uh, yeah, sure - very cogent argument you've put forth. I wish you and your Saw Stop well....hopefully its the only machine you use as a crutch to compensate for your lapses in attention.

    OP - lots of good advice, good luck with your search.
    Someone's a little sensitive.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Hillestad View Post
    Uh, yeah, sure - very cogent argument you've put forth. I wish you and your Saw Stop well....hopefully its the only machine you use as a crutch to compensate for your lapses in attention.

    OP - lots of good advice, good luck with your search.
    I have a few fingers that desperately wish that technology would have been on my stationary belt sander when my concentration lapsed for half a second. Fortunately they healed up, for the most part
    Last edited by Andrew Seemann; 04-08-2020 at 11:20 AM.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pratt View Post
    Someone's a little sensitive.
    Or doesn't know any actual data about shop accidents.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Seemann View Post
    I have a few fingers that desperately wish that technology would have been on my stationary belt sander when my concentration lapsed for half a second. Fortunately they healed up, for the most part
    There is no question that SawStops save fingers. There is also no question table saws don't cause mangled fingers--people with errant brains do. Your comment made me remember Jim Tolpin's chapter on woodworking injuries from his book "Woodworking Wit and Wisdom." So I had to retrieve it from the library and scan this picture.

    If you don't know where your hands are in relationship to the blade or device, or where the blade or bit will exit, then stop and think it over and perhaps use a pushstick, another device, or a different tool.

    If you have your mind on something other than the dangerous cut you are about to make, then it is time call it quits and perform the operation another day.

    I am scared to death of my power tools and intend to keep it that way.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Regards,

    Tom

  5. I'd advise figuring out what you want to build and buying the tools that you need to build it. Used tools are often a great way to extend the budget.

    For me the table saw isn't at the top of the list. I own one and use it, but it definitely wouldn't be the first thing I'd but is starting out. I'd buy a bandsaw before a table saw for sure, but that is for my work.

    As far as table saw injuries, sawstop, and all that.... Over the last 5 plus decades I have had way too many shop accidents and emergency room visits, but none were related to the table saw. I respect the saw enough that I don't think I am ever going to let my fingers contact a spinning blade. It seems to me that sawstop should have licensed their technology at an affordable enough price to make it available in a wider more general market. It is their choice and they are in business to make money, but I suspect they could have made plenty with a liberal licensing model and made their technology more widely available. In any case I am not inclined to buy sawstop myself. I trust myself to use the saw safely as I have for the last 5 plus decades. If on a budget you can buy a lot of saw for a lot less $$$ if you can trust yourself to use it safely.
    Last edited by Pete Staehling; 04-08-2020 at 6:22 AM.

  6. #36
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    STOP the personal attacks in this discussion, folks. That's not what this place is about. Provide an opinion if you have one...nicely.

    Jim
    Forum Moderator

  7. #37
    A little bit of advice that was given to me about buying used machines/tools. BE PATIENT AND WAIT FOR A DEAL ON WHAT YOU WANT. Don’t marry the first girl you kiss. ( Jim I hope I didn’t offend anybody!). 🤣

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    STOP the personal attacks in this discussion, folks. That's not what this place is about. Provide an opinion if you have one...nicely.

    Jim
    Forum Moderator
    Guilty as charged and apologies, Dad.

  9. #39
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    Take "buy used" with a major grain of salt.

    Many experienced woodworkers think this advice is obvious and that beginners who ignore it are wasting their money or buying inferior tools. "You should buy used" definitely makes sense for experienced folks who know how to evaluate a used purchase, how to fix minor problems, and who maybe don't need to rely on that tool right away. But for beginners it can be a major waste of time. Yes, there are benefits, but experienced woodworkers shouldn't ignore the opportunity cost of time spent learning how tools work and how to fix them. That cost comes in the form of less time learning how to *use* tools to *build* things.

    Virtually every used tool I have purchased has taken me on an unpredictable learning journey. Sometimes that journey has been valuable, but it's almost always inefficient. Just a couple examples:

    • I bought a used 10" Jet bandsaw. And struggled to make straight cuts, blamed my technique, and wasted a bunch of time before learning what a difference smooth bearings, good tires, and sharp blades make. Okay, those were good lessons, but I learned them painfully and slowly, and spent a lot of money and time on the wrong fixes first.
    • I bought a used Dewalt 735 planer. And learned that tool circuit breakers go bad, that unwaxed tables (or loose table plates) can cause those problems, and that you can replace individual shelix teeth but that this can cause its own problems. Again, good learning, but expensive in time and money.
    • I have bought several used planes. And am trying to learn how a well-tuned plane should work and how to get these used planes into that shape.


    If I had been an experienced woodworker, I would have recognized problems with those tools immediately, diagnosed them properly, and fixed them quickly. As a beginner, I spun my wheels a lot. So I'm glad that I bought a new table saw and jointer. I know that when those aren't working right, the problem is almost certainly with me.

    Note that for some less finicky things--dust collectors, spindle sanders etc--where problems are obvious and subpar performance isn't a huge issue, used makes more sense.
    Last edited by Sam Shankar; 04-08-2020 at 1:50 PM.

  10. #40
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    OP - You've gotten a nice array of advice from woodworkers further down the path than I am... but maybe my not-quite-newbie/not-yet-woodworking-god perspective is helpful too :-)

    I took the approach of buying used equipment for most of my needs. In many cases, this is pennies on the dollar.

    Some examples:
    - My first cabinet saw was a 3 hp Grizzly 1023, and really served me well for 10 years. I paid $400, later sold for $500 (cleaned up, new belts, new arbor assembly).
    - First jointer was a Ridgid 6" x 46", also served me well enough for 10 years. Paid $200, later sold for $300 (cleaned up, new knives).
    - My existing bandsaw is a Grizzly G0555 14" going strong for over 10 years. Paid $200, and then the same guy sold me my walker turner drill press for $100.

    I could go on.. but my points are:
    - You can get a real steal on price while you learn whether you want something else later (e.g. I recently upgraded the table saw and jointer).
    - If you change your mind later, re-selling equipment is pretty easy, and often you can make a "profit" just by cleaning and tuning the machine.


    So, I've really learned a lot through this approach overall.

    That said... when it comes to dust collection, I'd go bigger right out of the gate. 3 hp minimum, cyclone of some sort (I did Super Dust Deputy XL), 6 inch pipe for as much as possible (I used PVC and a mix of bought and built blast gates).

    Again, the used route is worth looking into. I paid $300 for my 3 hp DC. Bought my PVC at a supply specialist for about 1/2 the price of the big box stores.

    All told, with HVAC, my entire shop is probably over your $5K number, but is easily under $10,000 (cabinet saw, router table, miter saw, dust collection, band saw, 8" jointer, lunchbox planer, floor drill press, belt/disc sanding station, air compressor and nailers, spray equipment, bunch of handheld power tools, decent collection of hand tools, mini-split heating and cooling, various assembly tables / storage options / lighting)
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  11. #41
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    Get a mitersaw ! Every homeowner can use one, not just those doing woodwork. Crown sux on tablesaws. Can't believe guys suggest forgoing one. They are cheap and handy.

    Get a jointer early as you can. Hand planes will work , but you won't want to use them for jointing and flattening any more than you'd want to use Disston handsaw to cut your material. Planer if you can swing it with the jointer.

    Get a good router sooner. I'd suggest a trimmer like DeWalt DW611. Good for edges, small mortises, inlays, dovetails, dadoes, and cutouts. Get a medium combo kit when you need a router table and you'll then have 90% of the bases covered.

    What kind of furniture ? You might need a lathe - in which case your budget is thin.

    I'd suggest ponying up for a really good sander like festool, mirka or surfprep upfront. 3-5x the cost will seem silly when the depot has one at 59bucks, but trust me. Your arm and hand will thank you for years to come. Suck up the big cost of a companion tool activated vacuum at the same time. Festool is arguably the best but Makita is almost as good for hundreds less. If you can find a FLEX for $200-$400 - that's the hands down winner for the price. At full cost, get the makita or festool.

    The HF collector is a great value with a wynn filter and a Thien Baffle. The Delta 50-760 is also easily upgraded and can be had for $100=$250 used. A cyclone and fixed ducting wouldn't be my choice for a space I shared with a car.



    This isn't what you're set on; but I'd give it serious consideration. For 60% of your budget, you'd have the big 4 all covered with little need for upgrade in the future. Mortiser is a bonus. Takes up relatively little space and is moved pretty easily. Big bonus for a space you share with a car. A slider will be much better to work with for cabinets.


    https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/...076623498.html
    Last edited by Dave Sabo; 04-08-2020 at 8:00 PM.

  12. #42
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    You guys rock. I am going to keep re-reading this post and trying to figure out exactly the path I want to take. I set myself a $5k budget more as a placeholder, and I am not opposed to go over/under it if it makes sense. I can't help myself but to keep going back to Jim's post about buying what I need as I do my projects, and not buying things I THINK I'll need beforehand. I'm definitely going to keep a close eye on the FB marketplace and Craigslist to try and find some deals on used stuff, but I also don't mind spending more on new stuff knowing that it is new (and a warranty).

    I see everyone's argument about not getting a Sawstop, and saving a ton of money by going with something just as good (but without the safety feature of the SS), but I have two teenage boys that I want to teach as I am also learning, plus I have a 3 year old and another son due in August, so I don't mind spending more on safety. If it was just me that would be using these tools I would heavily consider spending less money on an equally quality table saw, but without the built-in safety features of a SS.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Winter View Post
    I see everyone's argument about not getting a Sawstop, and saving a ton of money by going with something just as good (but without the safety feature of the SS), but I have two teenage boys that I want to teach as I am also learning, plus I have a 3 year old and another son due in August, so I don't mind spending more on safety. If it was just me that would be using these tools I would heavily consider spending less money on an equally quality table saw, but without the built-in safety features of a SS.
    If you can afford it and want an American style table saw, there is no real argument for not getting a SawStop. Even without the blade brake it is an excellent machine. An even more important safety feature, IMO, is that it has a very good riving knife & guard that are easy & quick to change out when needed. It literally takes just a few seconds (maybe 5 - 10) and no tools.

    There are good reasons for going with a Euro slider though & I would encourage you to explore those. I have a SawStop because I didn't think I could make the slider work in my particular shop situation.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Winter View Post
    I see everyone's argument about not getting a Sawstop, and saving a ton of money by going with something just as good (but without the safety feature of the SS), but I have two teenage boys that I want to teach as I am also learning, plus I have a 3 year old and another son due in August, so I don't mind spending more on safety. If it was just me that would be using these tools I would heavily consider spending less money on an equally quality table saw, but without the built-in safety features of a SS.
    No more cogent argument than that. I was one of the guys against blowing 60% of the budget on a weak saw, but if i have kids one day i will probably buy a sawstop-esque saw for them to learn on. Hard to forgive yourself if you could have prevented maiming one of your own children.

    Those 5 function combo machines can be had for very little money at times. Like that rando imported generic machine that Dave linked. I saw that too and didnt feel comfortable suggesting it. That is a machine that could really bite you in the rear. Im guessing support is next to nill. That machine is probably from the 80s of early 90s. I remember some of the crappier SCM table saws having that slider carriage with the bar. I would be so so worried about electrics in that machine. Ive seen enough felder posts about people diagnosing issues with their older 5 function machines to know i never ever want to deal with that. And that is with the weight of the FOG and felder support behind you. I cant imagine tackling that troubleshoot with a chinese wiring diagram from 1989. Now, with all that said, i bet that guy has the hardest time selling that machine, and he ultimately accepts an offer close to $1,000. In my opinion, its worth probably $1,200, because he has a few nice shaper cutterheads and saw blades with it. Might be worth the risk of having to deal with the electrics down the road.

    My anti-5 function combo sentiments above are mostly tied to that generic import. If I am ever forced to work out of a one or two car garage, i would absolutely go for a Felder/Minimax 5 combo unit. They pack so much capability into such a small footprint, and they are some of the best used deals ive ever seen. I try to keep that opinion to myself for fear i ever have to buy one some day, but i have seen dozens of screaming deals across the country. Screaming deals that sit and sit and sit. For example, it sucks for you that you are searching now and not about 8 months ago. There was a CF731 S or CF741 S from around 2002 for sale very close to you. I want to say it was Hagerstown, MD. I think it was the 12" JP too and not the 16". Anyway, it was the professional 700 series slider with a 9' stroke. Guy had a power feeder with the tilt bracket, and he started around $5-6,000, dropped to $4,000, and i saw it a month or two later at $2,500. I assume it sold for around that price. $2,500 and someone walked away with a 12" jointer/planer, 4-5hp shaper, power feeder, and a 9' slider. Half your budget and would smoke the capabilities of everything we(myself included) just suggested. Would leave you with plenty of money for a great DC system and a good 18-20" bandsaw. Im interested in seeing what you put together. I love buying tools : )

  15. #45
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    I have been waiting now for about 15 years to find a good used cabinet saw within 50 miles and the only ones I have seen so far are either junk or priced like a new saw. They come up for sale at the rate of about one a year. How long do you think I should wait?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Citerone View Post
    A little bit of advice that was given to me about buying used machines/tools. BE PATIENT AND WAIT FOR A DEAL ON WHAT YOU WANT. Don’t marry the first girl you kiss. ( Jim I hope I didn’t offend anybody!). 藍

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