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Thread: Coolest video on hand plane blade cutting wood EVER!!!

  1. #1
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    Coolest video on hand plane blade cutting wood EVER!!!

    Over the past 6 months or so, there have been some great threads on BU vs BD planes. All to pursue the holy grail of reducing or eliminating tear out on difficult woods or when forced to plane against the grain.

    Our resident hand plane Guru Derek Cohen, opened my eyes up to the value of a chip breaker. Of course, I got the general premise of what Derek was explaining, but the nitty gritty details were of course, somewhat unclear.... TILL this video !!! This video demonstrates a level of set up precision I never fathomed...

    While hard to watch, not being in English, hit the pause button to study the sub titles... this video really demonstrate just HOW critical blade sharpness, shaving thickness and chip breaker angle, and distance Chip B from cutting edge all play a significant role to prevent tear out when going against the grain. And the settings are EXTREMELY fine to achieve success, like .1mm! It took this level of testing and video set up, to SEE the effects of all these variables at work in a live cut. Brilliant and so useful to us who are obsessed with clean cuts.

    What I am curious about, are these blade and chip breaker settings at the end of the video (when success is achieved) the magic formula, or is it ONLY the solution for this particular wood being cut? Or not just the wood, but the angle of the gain of the wood vs. the cutting surface, I would think this matters just as much. What really moved me, is just how such tiny changes in the chip breaker to bade edge distance makes such a radical difference in achieving a clean cut, i.e. .1mm change in distance!

    I am not sure this will change how many of us work, as it seems the level of precision required in set-up could turn hand planing into a set up project vs. the joy of planning. We still have sand paper as an option.

    But what I gained from this video is...

    1) blade sharpness is critical - which I already knew and offered on this forum in several of the previous threads. Being obsessed with sharpening overcomes a lot of cutting problems. Of course, blade angle still matters, that hasn't changed.

    2) Thickness of cut is ultra critical.. these two factor alone can solve nearly all tear out problems.

    3) Chip breakers serve a great role in preventing tear out, but the number of variables involved in the chip breaker angle and distance to edge are VAST... prob. more than I would be willing to deal with, hence why I will put more energy into 1 n 2 above.

    I am curious what others who are somewhat obsessed with hand planning get from this video....

    https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020...o-stop-tearout

  2. #2
    Have a look at David Weaver's YouTube videos for more on the subject of the double iron.
    If you look in the description you will see some photos up close.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9pAVgfSPMN0

    Tom

  3. #3
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    Hi Will,

    You must have missed all the discussion here about this video over the years.

    Google > setting a cap iron < to find what David Weaver posted ~8 years ago. He posted on another forum. He used to be a member here.

    What caught my interest is watching behind the blade. The material actually rises a bit. This shows why a clearance angle is important.

    I am not sure this will change how many of us work, as it seems the level of precision required in set-up could turn hand planing into a set up project vs. the joy of planning. We still have sand paper as an option.
    After learning how to get the best performance out of a hand plane, it is surprising how rarely you will want to use sand paper.

    The "magic formula" comes from experience. Chris Schwarz did a video on this showing how setting the breaker too close to the edge will produce a crinkled shaving. (some call it bacon like shavings.)

    The optimum setting to prevent tear out varies with the thickness of the shaving being produced.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 04-06-2020 at 10:46 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #4
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    Yes, I must have missed it...

    is it also effected by the type of wood and the angle of the grain?

    seems from that video, it took some time to get to the right chip breaker angle and distance... I would think this varies based on the angle of attack and the wood grain angles??

    This was the first scientific approach I have seen, demonstrating huge variance in the finished cut with only .01mm adjustments? Quite precise...

  5. #5
    For some history, read this thread from early 2012, especially John Strawn's post. This was before the video surfaced.

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....de-chipbreaker

  6. #6
    Apart from a wee no.4 with a good bit of.camber, I use mainly two planes for surfacing.
    A no.5 1/2 which has a tiny bit more camber than another no.4 I have.

    The largest camber I use, allows the cap iron to get upto a 32nd" away from the edge for dimensioning (max distance I can set the cap away), the other allows the cap to get closer than a 64 th" .

    Been working on reclaimed.timber for a bench build, top done, and I have a good selection of shorter heavier denser stock for the legs to choose from.
    I'm finding I am favouring a bit less camber on the no. 5 1/2 for these parts that I will be working on for the next week or two.

    I don't think it would be practical to have just one plane of the job, if you need to dimension timber, as a bit of camber is nice,
    It would be a pain to have to go inbetween cambers.
    What I'm trying to say it's the stock that your working on that will dictate what your.camber is, and if you like some.camber
    It will dictate how close you can set the Cap iron.


    I am curious on what stage you folks introduce the camber on your irons,and what method you use on your hones.
    Say starting with a freshly, evenly ground primary bevel, and a course, medium and fine hone that are flat.
    I was finding it difficult to get an even camber for a 32". setting,( about the max I can get away with on the lighter stock.)...

    I seem to be getting a more predictable and lesser pronounced.camber working it on the trailing edge, as pushing the edge to introduce the camber
    Seemed to make it too pronounced.

    What's your method, do you guys do the same technique for small vs unnoticeable until paired with the cap iron cambers?

    Thanks
    Tom
    Last edited by Tom Trees; 04-05-2020 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Clarity

  7. #7
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    I would think this varies based on the angle of attack and the wood grain angles??
    Do you mean the angle of bedding for the blade?

    Different woods will react in different ways.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #8
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    Fascinating experiment. I'll watch it again. Several observations:

    For the first time I understand clearance angle under the iron. I had not seen it illustrated at all, let alone with such brilliance. Suddenly I get it.

    I noted that the finest shavings they took here were 0.1 mm, or about 0.004" a pretty hefty slice! Obviously the wood species will have its effect, but with all other things held constant, it's encouraging that they found a setup that more of less eliminated tearout, even against a mild rising grain in the well-behaved-looking wood they used.

    ☞ I'd say this work ends the debate about whether it's necessary to prepare the chipbreaker (I've seen that play out on this site before). I'm left wanting to double down on my fine polishing of the breaker's mating surface with the iron, and the front face of the breaker.

    The researchers' setback distances might be tricky to set up for fine work. Their 0.2 mm setback is about 1/128" (0.008"), for a 0.004" shaving. We can probably see 0.2 mm in a good light. You hear a lot of folks aim for 1/32", but that's about 0.8 mm four times what this experiment found optimal for a relatively thick 0.004" shaving! Is the experimental setup an impossible goal if we're looking for a 0.001" shaving? After seeing this video, I think I'll just keep trying to touch the sides of the camber with the breaker and let the middle setback fall where it ends up. The researchers would probably only recommend rounding off the sides of the iron rather than give it a rounded camber across its width. More to debate!

    Like most of us here, I'd guess, my frog is 45, not 40 like the researchers used. My CB is honed and polished at 45, so I have the same end angle for the shaving to ride up on. I can't see myself trying to get 75 on the leading edge of the breaker, but the idea is going to rattle around in my head for a while. A spare chipbreaker for difficult grain!? Hmmm. I already have a spare L-N iron with a back bevel, presumably for the same purpose.

    But above all, the sharpness! I doubt my 8000-grit polished edges are as crisp as in the video, but I hope they are. Who is it in the Creek with the signoff line "sharp solves a lot of problems," or something like that?

  9. #9
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    Here's a well photographed approach to fettling a cap iron. Most of mine are soft, unhampered steel.

    Make sure your blade is flat, without belly or twist.
    Some surviving antique irons are hopelessly out of flat.

    https://newbritainboy.wordpress.com/...up-a-cap-iron/

  10. Bob,
    8,000 grit is extremely sharp.
    There may be a minute gain in going to 15,000 but it won't be much better.
    Keep up the good work,
    Best wishes,
    David

  11. #11
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    When planing gnarly wood, I test a cut off before tackling the wood. Sometimes it is best to use sandpaper.

  12. #12
    I haven't played about with the cap iron much, and went on the advice to round it a bit somewhere around 50 degrees.
    I believe Kees had mentioned that he doesn't hone the edge of the cap much different to the original profile.
    If memory serves me correct the higher the angle on the edge is, you can set the cap away minutely further away from the edge.

    On the subject of what's a camber and what isn't, if you can still take a narrow and wispy shaving in the middle, then that's what it is.

    Here's a pic of what is the largest camber I can get away with on my timbers..about 1/32nd" and no more.
    By "get away with" I am referring to being able to plane a board in any direction without tearout.


    1.jpg

    Still curious on when you folks would introduce the camber on a setting like so?

    I forgot to mention if you have a belly on the cap iron, or end up with one after honingit if it needs work, then I have found the corner of a hone works
    well for creating a hollow when working the underside, and you can finish off with a lick on the whole hone.
    Thanks
    Tom
    Last edited by Tom Trees; 04-07-2020 at 6:56 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post
    Bob,
    8,000 grit is extremely sharp.
    There may be a minute gain in going to 15,000 but it won't be much better.
    Keep up the good work,
    Best wishes,
    David
    David,

    OK, 8000 it is. I never wanted to go beyond that, anyway. I'll keep the faith. I'm getting good results, but that microscopic video (under ideal conditions!) gave me sharp envy.

    I just did a day of spokeshaving, block planing, and smoothing with the full set newly sharpened irons (lots of free time these days). Everything seemed to go as well as it ever has; no tool disappointments. I used that thread counter from you to examine the beginning of some tearout, and was able to correct it, and then avoid it altogether on another edge. Nice little tool.

    Now that I have a box to hold all my spare blades, I've been converted. I will always keep the spares sharp for the first moment when a blade I'm using feels like it's getting dull.

    Since starting this thread, I've remembered it was Rob Luter who signs off, "Sharp solves all manner of problems."

  14. #14
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    Tom, I wasn't able to see the picture. Anyone else?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    Here's a well photographed approach to fettling a cap iron. Most of mine are soft, unhampered steel.

    Make sure your blade is flat, without belly or twist.
    Some surviving antique irons are hopelessly out of flat.

    https://newbritainboy.wordpress.com/...up-a-cap-iron/
    Wow, Jim. You're really tempting me to try the steep angle on the cap iron.

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