Total newby help with table saw Please!

[Bob Hardin]

Hi all,
Been lurking for a while and am amazed at the knowledge here. Suffering from analysis paralysis! So, without further adoo here’s my dilemma.

I’m a retired 64 year young, ex air traffic controller. I’ve tinkered with woodworking in the past and I truly want to get good at building with wood. I HATE buying things twice and don’t want my equipment limitations to dampen my enthusiasm. I live in the mountains of northern Georgia and wood classes aren’t readily available. So, now on to what I want to do.

First, I want to build new cabinets for the kitchen. Then on to other (not too elaborate) furniture making. I have plenty of room in my garage (including 100 amp service). It’s 28 x 30.

Should I get a sliding table saw, or cabinet? Looking at Hammer k3 (don’t really want to wait 4 months), Minimax Sc2, Grizzly 0623, and Sawstop Pro (only cabinet style). If a slider, is the 48” large enough?

my budget is $5000 +-. I talked with the Hammer sales rep and he said they have a demo on sale for $4700. It’s a 2018 model, so 2 1/2 years old. Doesn’t seem like that good of a deal when a new one is about $4800. Plus they want $600 for shipping. It may have a couple accessories, but come on; $4700?

The Minimax Sc2 is about $5900. The Grizzly, $3100 but I worry about quality “frustration”. Is it a good machine? The Sawstop would be about $3700 delivered.

So, please guide me. Again, I don’t want to buy a machine only to have regrets due to equipment limitations. Any necessary accessories I should be aware of for any of these machines?

[Robert Engel]

While a sliding saw is nice, it is not a necessity. Lots of people build tons of cabinets without one. One thing to consider is the footprint. You're shop is a good size, but a big slider sitting in the middle takes up a lot of space.

I would say the one thing that has helped cabinetmaking for me is a track saw. There are ways to assist such as rolling carts, accessory tables, etc but ultimately I still ended up muscling big sheets of 3/4 material around which is no fun at my age.

Personally I have a Jet cabinet saw and have been very happy with it. If I were buying a table saw today, SawStop would be a no brainer decision for me.

Personally, with your funds available, I would go with SawStop and the accessory slider table.

[Bob Hardin]

While a sliding saw is nice, it is not a necessity. Lots of people build tons of cabinets without one. One thing to consider is the footprint. You're shop is a good size, but a big slider sitting in the middle takes up a lot of space.

I would say the one thing that has helped cabinetmaking for me is a track saw. There are ways to assist such as rolling carts, accessory tables, etc but ultimately I still ended up muscling big sheets of 3/4 material around which is no fun at my age.

Personally I have a Jet cabinet saw and have been very happy with it. If I were buying a table saw today, SawStop would be a no brainer decision for me.

Personally, with your funds available, I would go with SawStop and the accessory slider table.

The sawstop with the slider ($1199) puts the price right there with the Hammer. With the slider so far from the blade, does that negate the benefit?

[ChrisA Edwards]

I would love a slider. My garage is 30x30 so we have a similar size.

I would love a slider, but I wouldn't go smaller than a unit that will cut a 8'x4' sheet longways.

Shorter than that, I can get by accurately with a a track saw and a tablesaw.

I have a couple of Hammer tools and love them, but if I go slider it would be the SCM for their cheaper sliders or a Felder K700, which is double your budget.

I have a 3HP SawStop and with a decent size outfeed table and roller indeed support, I don't feel limited.

Where the slider has the advantage, from my viewpoint, is making repeatable accurate cuts in large sheets quickly. To achieve this, I cut my sheets down with a Festool track saw with the plywood lying on 2" solid foam insulation on the floor. If I had to do this three of four times a week, I'd probably make room for a slider, but my projects usually require me breaking down 2 or 3 sheets to very close to rough dimension, 1/4" oversize, and then final sizing it on my tablesaw.

For cuts like ripping a straight edge on a non planed board, an area where the slider excels, I have a $20 jig that will do the job, it just takes me a minute longer to accomplish it than it would with a slider.

I thinks sliders are great, but I'd have to give up a third of my floor space just to accommodate that one tool.

I haven't been able to justify this for the very few operations that a slider do a little better than my current setup.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Buy the 3hp SawStop with 36" fence and forget the slider. Use the money from the slider attachment for a good track saw. I have heard enough complaints about the SS slider that I wouldn't purchase. If you really want a slider, buy a slider.

[David Stone (CT)]

I have a Hammer K3 with a 2 meter table and outrigger. While I like it and feel it's been a good choice for the mix of work I do as a hobbyist woodworker, I'm suspecting that you might be better off with the SawStop. A few thoughts--

* Is the K3 they're offering you the same as mine, or is it the base model with the shorter table and w/o the outrigger? Not having an outrigger eliminates a couple of the biggest advantages of a sliding table saw, which are being able to crosscut the vast majority of boards and panels without futzing around rigging up extra support and having a crosscourt fence/stop that is long enough. Not everyone will agree, but to me a sliding table saw without a robust outrigger is not that big an advance over a cabinet saw with a crosscut sled (especially for making your planned kitchen cabinets).

* The exact stroke in this class of small sliding table saws is less important, IMO, just as long as it's enough to crosscut anything you'd do with any frequency, which for me is something like 30 inches. It's easy to get caught up in specs and the notion of being able to break down a sheet of plywood, and my saw has enough stroke to crosscut somewhat over 4 feet, which is occasionally helpful. But when I built my kitchen cabinets, I did the initial breakdown with a circular saw, because the reality is my shop is too tight and I am not strong enough to be manhandling full sheets across the saw anyway. The handful of times the stroke of my saw has been pushed to the limit have involved angle cuts on wide panels or using the table to making tapering rips-- and I can live with that.

* I've never seen the Grizzly in person, but to judge by the pictures on Grizzly's website, it uses a design where the fixed part of the sliding table projects way, way out from the front of the saw (and even has a leg), thereby preventing the operator from standing in the normal position to rip. This may be unavoidable on large sliders, but is a foolish design for a small format slider and would disqualify this machine for me. The K3 and some others have a table that projects out less than a foot, so you can still rip comfortably and safely using the rip fence like you would on a cabinet saw. (And note that ripping using the sliding table, advocated by some, isn't a viable alternative since there's often not enough stroke.)

* It's important to understand that the K3 (and, I'm guessing but don't know, the comparable MiniMax) are entry level machines for what they are. IMO, Felder/Hammer has done a good job overall on the K3 in terms of putting money into what matters, like the table which is basic but well functioning. But don't assume that because they're more money than a cabinet saw, everything is necessarily better, or as good, in all respects. Particularly, the K3 is more lightly built internally; it has held up fine for me as a hobbyist, but, for example, the blade rise and tilt functions are not as smooth and satisfying as on a cabinet saw.

* Finally, in figuring your budget, be sure to account for accessories that cost extra but are basically mandatory. On a sliding table saw, you will want at least one hold down, for example.

[Alex Zeller]

Like most I would love a slider. I've used my neighbors a few times and it just makes me want one even more. But I'm not going to tie up the room needed for one. Beyond making repeated cuts easy and having a scoring blade the other advantage is that you don't have to worry about keeping your plywood tight against the fence. One of the skills you will need to learn with a table saw is to keep your wood tight against the fence for the entire cut. An outfeed table helps a lot and you could make an infeed table if needed but when working with a 4x8 3/4" sheet it's a lot of weight. The slider removes all but manhandling the sheet onto the saw.

As others have said a track saw is a viable option that would complement a table saw. I've been lazy and haven't added one yet. I do have a Lufkin 8' wooden straight edge that I can use similar to a track saw. There are some drawbacks. If making a cut in the middle of a sheet sometimes you will be stretching to make the full cut. For example if you want to break down a 4x8 into two 4x4s. I can't reach that far if the sheet is on top of my table saw so either I need to stand on a box or put the sheet on the floor to make the cut. Secondly you need something under the sheet because the blade must pass through the sheet. I use sheets of pink insulation but they have to be stored when not in use. A track saw can cut an angle, unlike a table saw, like a slider can do. To me a track saw seams more like a tool for a hobbyist (nothing wrong with that).

[Thomas McCurnin]

30x30 is small once one starts to add gear—a 6-8 foot bench, sharpening station, drill press, band saw, panel saw, dust collection, miter saw station, radial arm saw, wood storage, clamp storage, cabinets and drawers for holding power tools, hand tools, and your table saw and its many jigs and accessories. Before committing to a saw of that size, I’d want to map out what my shop would look like in a few years. You can pick up an excellent used cabinet saw from cabinet shops made by Delta, General, Oliver, Jet, Rockwell, and Powermatic for $2,000.

Sliders are nice but have a very big footprint perhaps too big for 30x30 which is full of gear. In my dream shop, I think I’d rather have a pair of table saws so one can keep the settings on one while working on the other if space was not a concern.

[Jim Dwight]

I have a Sawstop PCS with 36 inch fence and 1.75hp motor. I am retired and I am 64. I've been making wooddust for 40+ years. I've built one kitchen and a lot of furniture for me and my kids. I've only had the sawstop for a couple years. Before that I did fine with "lesser" table saws. I've made more things with them than the PCS.

I've watched videos but I've never used a sliding table saw. I am sure I could catch on but using one would be a learning experience for me - despite my decades of experience.

Considering you are new at this, I think the added safety device of the Sawstop is a significant advantage. I like having it even with my experience. I live alone so a serious injury would be a challenge. Other saws are also safe but depend more on you not making a mistake.

You could build kitchen cabinets without using sheet goods but that would be unusual. Commercial cabinets use thinner sheet goods but I used 3/4. A sheet of 3/4 plywood is about 75 lbs. Particle board or MDF is heavier, but I wouldn't use them. How you will handle 75 lbs that is not shaped well for handling is a significant thing to think about. If you have a helper, even a wife, it would help. Some people come up with a good solid way to put full sheets through their table saw without it being terribly tiring or risky and I've done it but I would prefer not to. I do cuts on large pieces, sheet or otherwise, with my DeWalt track saw. I have a piece of 1 inch foam I put over the outfeed/work table to cut on. I haven't done it but I could slide sheets right out of the bed of my pickup onto the cutting table. If I was making a kitchen I would do this. While I can still handle full sheets I get tired and would want the stamina to be able to work longer. I cut up a sheet of 1/2 plywood for drawers recently in a couple hours with my track saw. It is not slow and it is accurate. I also think it is safer than the table saw.

Your shop is bigger than mine, mine is 14x24, but you will still run out of space if you try and allow 8 feet on every side of your table saw. You need space for you and also other tools.

I'd get a PCS and a track saw like I have. You will not regret it. The PCS is a good table saw, even ignoring the safety system. With these tools and a bunch more, you can make cabinets better than most. Festools are good tools but overpriced IMHO. I have a domino but use other brands when they exist. But if you want to just get tools which are good in each category without doing a bunch of research, you could get a Festool track saw, dust extractor, drills, maybe a domino, etc..

[Mike Kreinhop]

I have plenty of room in my garage (including 100 amp service). It’s 28 x 30.

Your garage shop is about four times larger than my basement shop. I have the Minimax SC2 Classic, and love it. One drawback of the SC2 in my shop is it cannot be moved around once commissioned...at least I haven't found a way to do it. The Hammer K3 can be moved with the mobility kit, and would be ideal for my shop, but I didn't want to wait for it. in Europe, there are two versions of the SC2, with and without the scoring blade. I don't think it's possible to add the scoring blade later if you purchase the version without it.

The SC2 can rip and crosscut full sheets of plywood. Like the K3, the outrigger table on the slide can be removed when not needed and the support arm folded along the saw chassis. The SC2 can then be used with the rip fence, a smaller outrigger on the slide, or the Fritz and Franz jig on the slide. Unlike the K3, it is not possible to make dado cuts with the SC2. My SC2 came with one clamp for holding sheet goods to the slide and an edge clamp for holding planks to the slide. The only accessories I bought for the SC2 are a set of blades.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m a cabinet maker by trade, also a self professed machine addict so take that into account.

I’ll try to think what’s best for your situation and not mine.

But there it goes. A slider can be used so many ways for work so much more accurate “much more easily accurately” than other tools that can do the same job.

Don’t get me into track saws. Imop they are great sight tools but try and build a whole kitchen with one and cabinet saw and unless it’s the one kitchen you will ever build it sucks. But if it is the one and only kitchen you will ever build and your retired with time and frustration to burn it might be a perfect mat also not be as fussy as me and consider a 4x4 piece of plywood out a 32nd acceptable. I don’t, don’t get me wrong I’ll use it if my machine can’t do better and honestly it’s close enough but it still makes my blood boil using a machine that can’t cut square and or known true repetitive cuts. A thirty second compounded in something like a box with other boxes attached along with face frames quickly becomes hack work.

Now if all you made was furniture and never touched plywood well I’d have a hard time saying you needed a slider. But for me I have learnt like so many machines there are just some machines you e]really want to have if your gonna be serious about this. A slider is 100% at least for me one of them. I work full time in a shop to date making pipe organs. We don’t use plywood and I still loath not having one for more tasks than I can list. They just Kane so many things so much more easy.

Don’t buy a cheap anything. Machines that don’t hold calibration are a futile battle with your patients when trying to do good work. Not to mention learning as the curve is steep beginning learning to tune machines and work wood.

$5k is nothing in the world of Woodworking machinery. Better put on your seatbelt as the “machinery and tool thing” is very very expensive.

But fun so don’t let it discourage you.

But yes 30x30’ is a small space. Quickly building cabinets that space will frill up. The longer I have been Woodworking the more creative I get at fitting more machines, materials and work in progress into a shop as I find the value in the machines outweigh the lack of open space. Just because a machine is there doesn’t mean this is not still a surface or space for work. You just need to be creative. That will be the case for you regardless with only 30x30..

Good luck and have a blast it really is great fun!

Oh yeah dint get a slider that can’t handle a 8’ sheet of plywood. A ten foot table is ideal. In my home shop I only have a 9am table. Not ideal but it gets done what I need it to. Someday when I have a bigger space I’ll get a 12’__

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have the short stroke Hammer with the outrigger.

It has a scoring blade on it, and will crosscut sheet goods without chipping on the bottom surface. It will of course rip any length in a conventional manner using the rip fence.

It will definitely accommodate the sizes required for kitchen cabinets. You could not convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.

The outrigger comes off the saw in a couple of minutes without tools, normally mine hangs on the wall until I need it to support large pieces.

To me, the Euro slider wins hands down......Rod.

[Bob Hardin]

I’m a cabinet maker by trade, also a self professed machine addict so take that into account.

I’ll try to think what’s best for your situation and not mine.

But there it goes. A slider can be used so many ways for work so much more accurate “much more easily accurately” than other tools that can do the same job.

Don’t get me into track saws. Imop they are great sight tools but try and build a whole kitchen with one and cabinet saw and unless it’s the one kitchen you will ever build it sucks. But if it is the one and only kitchen you will ever build and your retired with time and frustration to burn it might be a perfect mat also not be as fussy as me and consider a 4x4 piece of plywood out a 32nd acceptable. I don’t, don’t get me wrong I’ll use it if my machine can’t do better and honestly it’s close enough but it still makes my blood boil using a machine that can’t cut square and or known true repetitive cuts. A thirty second compounded in something like a box with other boxes attached along with face frames quickly becomes hack work.

Now if all you made was furniture and never touched plywood well I’d have a hard time saying you needed a slider. But for me I have learnt like so many machines there are just some machines you e]really want to have if your gonna be serious about this. A slider is 100% at least for me one of them. I work full time in a shop to date making pipe organs. We don’t use plywood and I still loath not having one for more tasks than I can list. They just Kane so many things so much more easy.

Don’t buy a cheap anything. Machines that don’t hold calibration are a futile battle with your patients when trying to do good work. Not to mention learning as the curve is steep beginning learning to tune machines and work wood.

$5k is nothing in the world of Woodworking machinery. Better put on your seatbelt as the “machinery and tool thing” is very very expensive.

But fun so don’t let it discourage you.

But yes 30x30’ is a small space. Quickly building cabinets that space will frill up. The longer I have been Woodworking the more creative I get at fitting more machines, materials and work in progress into a shop as I find the value in the machines outweigh the lack of open space. Just because a machine is there doesn’t mean this is not still a surface or space for work. You just need to be creative. That will be the case for you regardless with only 30x30..

Good luck and have a blast it really is great fun!

Oh yeah dint get a slider that can’t handle a 8’ sheet of plywood. A ten foot table is ideal. In my home shop I only have a 9am table. Not ideal but it gets done what I need it to. Someday when I have a bigger space I’ll get a 12’__

thanks Patrick. What other power tools do you use regularly?

[Bob Hardin]

Pulled the trigger on the Hammer k3. Hopefully delivered next week or so. Any good ideas on getting it tuned in and running when it arrives?

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow that was quick!

Just start using it. It will tell you what’s wrong. Then you get to figure out why and what to do about it. That’s half the joy of this whole thing.

But if you need help just PM me and I’ll do what I can. I have become pretty darn good at calibrating sliders.

Don’t get these just yet as you might no need them. Just make some test cuts and measure.

But a couple dial indicators and mag bases a straight edge and a very accurate high quality square will soon become your friends if you don’t already have them.

You could get lucky and need nothing?

You can also get by with a tape measure a set of feeler gauges and level and get close enough for most.