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Thread: Dyson designs new ventilator in 10 days

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    I would be concerned about a brand new design for a ventilator, especially by someone who was not experienced with the design of ventilators. I'm sure there are all kind of subtleties in the design and operation of a ventilator and it would take quite a bit of testing to work it all out before you were willing to put it on a human. It seems to me that the best and safest approach is to take existing, proven designs and ramp up production.

    Even then, I expect some problems with some of the units from manufacturing defects. When you push a production line you get problems.

    Mike
    Mike,

    Perhaps they redesigned in effort to reduce the cost or time of creating such a unit. I certainly agree with you but when people are in desperate need what is ideal is going to become the adversary of what is possible.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #17
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    I doubt anyone would disagree with you on the placebo thing.

    I also sincerely doubt that the British government, Dysan, the medical authorities are suggesting that they provide patients with equipment that doesn't work.
    I feel quite confident that whatever is designed will be tested, and approved.
    Just maybe some equipment, though rapidly designed during a crisis, may provide help at some level, to patients in need, and who would otherwise have no equipment available to them.

    Many of the great inventions and developments have been developed under pressure of crisis.
    It pushes people to think outside the box, it pushes people to get results, it pushes people to use what's available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    In desperate times there are people who sell "hope", false hope. It's important that we question and make sure that what's being offered is what's actually needed and that it really helps people - not just a placebo effect.

    Mike

  3. #18
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    Many of the great inventions and developments have been developed under pressure of crisis.
    It pushes people to think outside the box, it pushes people to get results, it pushes people to use what's available.[/QUOTE]


    But this isn't a new invention. Is Dyson innovative? No question about it. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement on the current design. It seems like there are so many fail-safes that a system would need that throwing one together on the cad program and having a reliable and safe working model are distant objectives. I hope they did nail it here. But getting into production from a prototype has it's own challenges. Are these simple "iron lungs" with no technology? If so that could work. Sometimes technology isn't the critical need and they have other means in which to monitor vitals independently. Kudos to them for making the effort. It remains to be seen how this develops.

  4. Yeah we should hold up use and run ten years of studies to see if any defects arise? The people who are dying because they can't breathe don't care. Things have gotten so desperate, the CDC has issued guidelines for what can be used when ventilators are not available. The C-pap is on the list for a last resort.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Hilbert Jr View Post
    The C-pap is on the list for a last resort.
    Well here's the very last resort. It's the original manual form of ventilation, commonly called an Ambu bag. These are most famously used on the battlefield or emergency situations like paramedics that might not have better equipment on board. To ventilate a patient in respiratory failure for 24 hours, it would require a person standing there pumping the bag for 24 hours. No control over tidal volume and it is very easy to hyperventilate the patient. Cost is about $20. About as primitive as it gets.

    I think I heard Gov. Cuomo say New York State just ordered 20,000 of them, to have on hand as a last resort.

    ambu bag.jpg

  6. #21
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    Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Stanek View Post
    Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it
    Well if you did as you're describing, and you had the ability to adjust the tidal volume, and you could independently adjust the inspiratory and expiratory pressure, and you could filter out CO2 from the process, and you could adjust the concentration and flow rate of the oxygen the person was receiving (FI02), then......
    you would basically have created a ventilator.

    A ventilator is a life support device, fairly complicated. I've never taken one apart, but I'd estimate it is made from hundreds of parts. It is not a device that can be made in someone's garage on a DIY basis, and in fact, I have wondered how on earth you could just instruct a car manufacturer to make one and they would be able to do so expediently.

    To more directly answer your legitimate question, an Ambu bag is basically a replacement for mouth to mouth resuscitation. It does have the ability to connect a tank of oxygen to it via a port, but it is such a manual device that using it for any length of time would not really be practical. If a patient were going into distress you could use one to buy some precious time though. They are really intended only for emergencies, codes, field situations.

    Another thing I have not heard discussed in the mainstream is how you would supply oxygen to a ventilator being used in a temporary hospital situation where there is no piped in bulk oxygen on site. I would guess they will have to rig up some type of manifold with a set of bulk or mini bulk oxygen tanks? To be used properly, a ventilator must have an O2 source, and an alarm system that sounds if the O2 runs low or (god forbid) runs out. Of course if it did run out the patient would still be getting some oxygen at a room air level, but if they were truly in respiratory failure, it would not be enough. I would guess that industrial medical med gas suppliers like Airgas and Air Liquide are under a lot of pressure to deliver ad hoc systems and oxygen to NY right now.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    A ventilator is a life support device, fairly complicated. I've never taken one apart, but I'd estimate it is made from hundreds of parts. It is not a device that can be made in someone's garage on a DIY basis, and in fact, I have wondered how on earth you could just instruct a car manufacturer to make one and they would be able to do so expediently.
    My understanding of the GM situation is that they're going to build the existing Ventec unit. Ventec brings a proven successful design and GM provides the logistic and production capability.

    I assume they're going to contract out the production of the circuit boards. Bringing in pick and place machines, and training auto workers to operate them, would take a lot of time. There are people who are set up to produce circuit boards on contract and that seems a better approach. You could even use Asian board makers - I'm sure there are ways to disinfect boards to make sure they are not harboring any virus.

    Ventec has already ramped up production about as much as they can in their facility. They need help to really turn out a volume in a short time.

    Mike

    [I believe that others who have committed to producing ventilators in volume are partnering with existing ventilator makers to ramp up production. They are not starting from scratch with a new design.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 03-29-2020 at 12:28 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Stanek View Post
    Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it
    I cant produce the reference article I read this in, but I think that simplified ventilators that Dyson and others are working on are based on this idea.

  10. #25
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    The Dyson article didn't mention if he was going to make the design available to all or if he patented it.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Stanek View Post
    Could you modify an Ampu bag with a hose and face mask That a timed mechanism could squeeze it
    They make "external" ventilators that essentially do that. It consists of a mask that covers the nose and mouth and fits tightly against the face. It cycles between pressures to force oxygen into the lungs and uses the collapse of the chest to force the air out. My wife was on one of those but eventually they intubated her. When I asked why, I was told that the external units do not do as good of a job as the intubated units.

    I expect that even these units have a level of complexity to them. If you wanted to produce a bunch of them, the best thing would be to take an existing design and ramp up production.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  12. #27
    Even if someone figures out an expedient way to produce millions of ventilators, has anyone figured out where to source the staff to administer them?
    We're talking about respiratory therapists or nurses or a combination of the two. These devices don't run themselves.

    In my state, the Department of Health services says they have a plan to increase hospital bed capacity by 50%. What the director says they don't have is a plan for how to staff the increased capacity.
    Last edited by Edwin Santos; 03-29-2020 at 1:44 PM.

  13. #28
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    Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury
    "Any port in a storm"
    That is less than ideal I am sure but desparate times require desparate measures.
    Never let the desire for the perfect get in the way of what needs being done good enough right now.

    I assume they're going to contract out the production of the circuit boards. Bringing in pick and place machines, and training auto workers to operate them, would take a lot of time.
    Who makes the circuit boards GM currently uses in their vehicles?

    Their vehicles currently have circuit boards behind the dash and in onboard computers.

    They may have a problem making the face plates and enclosures for these devices.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #29
    Here's a story about the government's attempt to get a company to build low cost ventilators.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  15. #30
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    That is about Corporate greed, Corporate law, Soulless CEO's, Government irresponsibility, bad management, lack of accountability etc. in short, the business of business, not the business of design and production.
    It is not news to hear that the government throws your money away and that big corporation will happily take it.

    And It has nothing to do with the ability of a motivated company to design and build a high quality working ventilator at a reasonable cost.

    Keep an eye on Dyson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    Here's a story about the government's attempt to get a company to build low cost ventilators.

    Mike

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