Only with respect to being different product lines. In the context of the OP's question, they are both priced higher than he currently has budget for, at least for a new unit.Originally Posted by nicholas mitchell
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Only with respect to being different product lines. In the context of the OP's question, they are both priced higher than he currently has budget for, at least for a new unit.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Contributor
LOL, I say them in the same breath all the time but are you a day person or a night person? That’s the real question, right? If I suddenly needed a truck for towing trailers and bought a Tacoma or Ford Ranger, then I’m probably going to be disappointed. On the other hand, if I just need a truck for hauling bags of mulch or the occasional sheet good, that 3/4-ton truck was overkill and I wasted good money.
I’ve said this before and I’ll keep saying it: The VAST MAJORITY of solid wood machines you will find in professional shops are mass-produced Asian stand-alones (or antique American iron). Somehow, we all assume that pro shops spend big money on standard machines and always have better machines than we do. Of course, many do but most do not and more importantly, they are getting it done every day on these very budget-oriented machines. For example, I was in one of my shops yesterday. Door manufacturer. They are getting ready to take delivery of a quarter-million dollar, 5-axis CNC machine. Surely, they have the most state-of-the-art shapers, right? WRONG: They have a bunch of ancient Weavers, all cobbled together out of spare parts. Our most basic shaper, the Hammer F3, would be a massive upgrade. Another example: One of my local customers specializes in architectural solid wood table tops. They have owned a Hammer A3-41 for about 5 years and do all their jointing and planing on it. They purchased it before I was back onboard with Felder and to be honest, if they had approached me, looking for equipment and after seeing what they were doing, I would have told them not to buy the Hammer and that they really needed an industrial jointer and industrial planer. But, they haven’t managed to kill that A3-41 yet and really haven’t had any service issues it.
Point being, we get in in our heads that “you must have this level” in order to have a good experience or produce good results but a lot of that is more perception than reality. At least in my experience. I hope this all makes sense. BTW, the Hammer A3-31 is the best selling machine in the entire Felder lineup, and by a mile.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
[OP]
Member
Rod, what mobile base did you choose? The Jet doesn't come with a base, correct?
Contributor
Well said Erik.
I often ask customers during seminars to identify which piece of wood came out of the A3-31 or the AD741.
Only I can tell because I numbered them.
My original A3-31 is over 1,500 hours now, no repairs, only routine maintenance.............Rod.
Member
Mark,
I don't recall who made it. I picked it up at the shop where I got the Jet. I've added a couple of photos. It works great and is adjustable.
20200312_223304[252].jpg
Last edited by Rod Wolfy; 03-13-2020 at 6:08 PM.
Member
Looks like a nice base. I got the floor model JJP-12 and got them to throw in the base. My mobile kinda sucks but I get by.
Michael Dilday
Suffolk, Va.
Contributor
Well said Erik!
As an amateur with a workshop in my garage, the addition of Hammer machines (K3, N4400 and A3-31) - replacing Taiwanese-built machines - has been a dream come true. Perhaps my standards for tools are lower than many here, but I do not view them as limiting the quality of the furniture I build.
It is sobering for me to be reminded that these guys turn out some amazing work with minimal tools ....
Regards from Perth
Derek
Guest
Ok I can’t help myself.
I will confirm what Eric saiz to be very true. Sure there probably are just as many pro shops with pro level equipment in them but that’s just my opinion. I don’t know any more than anyone else around here. Well not true as I make my living working as a employee building stuff out of wood in someone else’s shop. I’m exposed to shops at random on the regular but not in and out of a new one everyday like a plywood salesman.
I’ll keep it simple. The difference imop in use and at leas to me comes down to how well a machine holds its calibration. Some just won’t or don’t and the time spent trying to keep up with chasing it is not worth your while vrs employing a work around and giving up on the machine.
I personally don’t see how in a production environment of any sort regardless of how big or small stopping every ten minutes to adjust the feed rollers, pressure bars, outfeed table cuz it keeps dropping, ripping off the dust chute cuz the dust collection was paid zero attention to or the dam dust collector and duct work were not sized properly and the machine keeps backing up any any other million possible and very regular occurrences with crap machines.
But so far in my experience I must be the minority as every shop I have worked in and to date is just as Eric suggested. The boss and most all employees see nothing wrong with it or chasing their tails all day or just accepting piss poor results and then work that reflects such. But you know the boss is always watching wondering why everything takes so long riding your ass making clear he ain’t making money. I suppose maybe they don’t feel like they are chasing their tails and maybe it’s just me and a few others on the side of the fence and instead of the 2 hours a day wasted on paying a employee to operate a crap machine it’s easy enough to just say the employee is the problem. I expect my work to be perfect, like perfect. It never will be perfect but I’m sure not gonna accept “ah the dam jointer cuts giant bow” so I guess my work ain’t gonna be flat or straight. But so many do.
I’ll say this, my Martin jointer sits probably collecting rust. Daily I use a powermatic 12” machine with tables in need of serious adjusting so short compared to a machine actually worth of a production environment and a fence that won’t hold 90% and must be checked every single time you walk up to the machine. Weekly I also use my Felder Ad941 and by comparison how the powermatic jointer and planer “separates” the planer 22” wide my takeaway is immediately this POS Felder is such a joy to use by comparison and I have like zero love for it. But it is heads and shoulders nicer than any powermatic or grizzly. Being single phase and only 4hp and the lightweight build overall I know I’d fry the thing in no time running it for hours on end day in and day out like I do daily for my work. In no time the machine would exhibiting all the same problems of a powermatic or grizzly. Out of the box new and or with light use it does feel like a benz by comparison though.
Some perspective I’ll often mill stock for 3-4 hours at a time. Take lunch and hit it for another couple hours. The other day I literally ran the new old polish gomad for seven running hours with a 30 minute break. It didn’t flinch one bit. Like I turned it one for 30 seconds for one pass. I thought to myself I bet this thing has been run like this day in and day out all day just like I use it it’s entire life and it’s still as good as the day it was new and waaaaaay nicer than any powermatic, Minimax or Felder.. It’s not pretty, there is nothing cool about it. But where it impresses is ability towards its intended use without every having to worry a dam about anything really going wrong mid run. And used it was $3700
Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 03-13-2020 at 9:40 PM.
Contributor
Pro shops now? or pro shops that were around for 50-80 years or more. Some with 50 -80 or over 100 employees, they had next to no offshore, at least that offshore.
It likely didnt exist in the same amount and it also would not fit the mentality of trained europeans, they have little interest in setting up shops with it, if they did I would have seen it.
If I look at the first row of many rows of the auction folder of auctions I attended its almost all heavy European stuff. If offshore was there it was in small portable dust collectors. Every auction introduced me to more quality mostly european and some US stuff, some I had never of. One shop had over 10 shapers mostly SCM. No brand was more prominent in shops than SCM. Typical to see a big top pro shop with 5 or more different SCM machines and 10 or 20 other brands of heavy european mostly and some US stuff. Shapers were almost always 1 1/4 spindles. Number of impressive US manufacturers.
Contributor
Let me guess...you're a Felder owner
Scott Vroom
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
Contributor
I think if you are frugal in business it is advisable to buy good equipment one time and make sure it’s the kind of stuff that makes for efficient process.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Contributor
Agreed. Well said, Erik. Your comments were right on the mark. While I was awaiting delivery of my A3-41 a fews years back, I went to a Felder open house (LA) to look over the entire Hammer line. I don't mean this as a put-down to anyone at Felder, but there was a near ubiquitous effort to push me toward Felder when I specifically went to see the Hammer stuff. I was in the woodworking machinery business, from hobbyist to multi million dollar production equipment, from 1985 until I retired in 2015, so I understood, listened and let it pass.
I just watched a video tour (FW) of Michael Fortune's shop. In addition to the 15 Hp variable speed 24" planer, he has 3 or 4 lunchbox planers that get used much more often than the big stuff. He must have 10 bandsaws, including a Ridgid 10" that gets used every day. He has a 12" 3 phase industrial jointer and a 6" Jet jointer. Guess which one gets used the most.
I do not need the additional beefiness nor the "bells and whistles" that Felder offers over Hammer. I have been very, very happy with my A3-41. I smile every time I use it. I have a close friend here who has a complete Felder shop, including the AD741. I've used it extensively and can honestly say it has never made me regret buying Hammer.
I'm heading to the nursery this afternoon in my Honda pickup to get some mulch!
Member
People are getting way off subject here. We are talking about a jointer/ planer combo machine. Sure there are high price and more affordable options here. But to be honest when I ran my production shop I would never even think getting a combo machine, it's just not efficient or enough capacity for a full production shop. Not that they are not good machines, because I just bought one and love it, but I just switched from perfectly good stand alone machines to save space, and that's what I think the majority of us who have combo machines bought them for... space saving. So to get into holding tolerances and such is a mute point. The OP was merely asking for opinions on combo machines. I'm sure experiences with certain machines, pros and cons, is what he is looking for.
Contributor
the old guys I knew bought combos because one purchase gave them five machines. Plug and play, one hookup. Both cases it was not space, it was cost saving compared to buying five separate machines. No one ever talks about that, its not just space.
Fast forward that to when I bought them. I got the same five in one machine for the price of what one used same quality machine would cost. They are great value.
Last edited by Warren Lake; 03-15-2020 at 7:52 PM.
Member
Chances are, the answer to your question is there is not a MiniMax or Hammer (or any other used JP for that matter) within 300 miles. That is how it is where I live.
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