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Thread: Dust collector replace bottom bag with filter bag?

  1. #1

    Dust collector replace bottom bag with filter bag?

    I have a JDS 1.5HP dust collector with a 1 micron canister on top.

    I have a Oneida dust deputy on the intake side with a 25gallon drum.

    I hardly see any dust getting to the bottom bag on the dust collector.

    Does it make sense to replace the bottom bag on the dust collector with another canister or a filter bag to increase the air flow?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Suffolk, Va.
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    Are you getting dust and chips in the 25 gallon drum?
    Michael Dilday
    Suffolk, Va.

  3. #3
    yes. Dust Deputy is grabbing almost everything.

  4. #4
    Excellent question, in theory yes you should get more flow. By increasing the outlet flow area you reduce the back pressure on the fan and thus you should get more flow. Whether it would be substantial is harder to answer. You could try an experiment, take the bag off, turn the machine on and see if you notice more flow, somewhat subjective but maybe worth a try. If you can move it outside you could see if the dust pickup is improved without filling your shop with dust.

  5. #5
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    You need to measure air flow at an open gate. Getting dust in the filter bag is not an indication of adequate airflow. With proper air flow and a good cyclone separator you will get almost no dust in the canister bag. I have a Jet JCDC-3 cyclone with canister filter and a 66 gallon drum. I have paddles with a handle that cleans the filter. The filter is probably 5+ years old and gets daily use. I can empty the 66 gallon drum probably a dozen times before I need to empty the small bag under the canister. I get great air flow.
    Michael Dilday
    Suffolk, Va.

  6. #6
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    Something like this may be useful for measuring your airflow.
    David

    https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Wind-...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

    anemometer.jpg

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank DiSessa View Post
    I hardly see any dust getting to the bottom bag on the dust collector.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank DiSessa View Post
    yes. Dust Deputy is grabbing almost everything.
    Then your system is handling the dust exactly the way it should. Too little airflow for the cyclone would pass more dust to the bag under the filter.

    Which Dust Deputy model do you have? There are at least four different sizes.

    A clean filter will have very little resistance to flow, especially on such a small dust collector, unless it;s severely undersized. How big is your filter?

    Are you saying that you don't have enough airflow at the point of pickup? Having a cyclone in the system in addition to the existing separator (aka bag holder) will certainly cause reduced airflow. So will a lot of other things.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank DiSessa View Post
    Does it make sense to replace the bottom bag on the dust collector with another canister or a filter bag to increase the air flow?

    Wynn Environmental helped me select the canister for my setup and told me that one would be sufficient for my 3 hp unit... their reasoning was that once system loss (ducting, leaks, cyclone) were accounted for the airflow would be low enough that 1 canister could handle it. They recommended that I start there and judge the results over time to decide if stacking another canister would make sense. My system would collect small animals, tape measures, a stray coffee cup... so I haven't felt the need to further upgrade. This is from the perspective of a company that specializes on this topic, and stands to lose money by convincing me not to buy another one of their products. Maybe not super scientific on my side, but makes me trust it a bit more.

    In your case, the starting point (JDS 1.5 hp) is smaller, so I would reason that the thought process above easily holds true for your case too (assuming properly sized canister was selected). Again, I'm not Mr. Science, but it seems reasonable to me.

    As for a filter bag... If you arrive at the conclusion (like I did) that another canister is probably not needed, then I wouldn't even bother going down the thought path around filter bags... you're already at the "best" level of filtration products by using (a presumably high quality and properly sized) canister, so adding a filter bag would be a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  9. #9
    Thanks to all for the replies.

    My main issue is that the air flow is reduced on the intake of all the machines. Before I had the dust collector (1250CFM) connected to machines individually with 4" 20' flex hose. Now I have added the
    Oneida AXD002030A Super Dust Deputy and 4" sewer pipes to all the machines (3 total) on the ceiling with electronic blast gates to save me the problem of having a long hose on the floor and forgetting to attach it most of the time. I think both the extra piping and dust deputy contribute in the reduction of air flow. Router and table saw dust extraction is OK, but now my jointer planer is not grabbing the chips like it used to and I hate having a lot of the chips escaping onto the floor.


    I think I might have to increase the dust collector size to get back to the performance I had before with the jointer planer. Canister on the JDS 1.5HP dust collector is standard that comes with the machine:
    machine link: https://www.amazon.com/JDS-14031-Dus.../dp/B000078UUU
    Canister link: https://www.amazon.com/JDS-16002-1-M...ct_top?ie=UTF8

    I think I will go out to get an airflow meter to test the airflow as a first step.

  10. #10
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    First problem is the 4" ducting. Replace that with 5" for a big boost in performance.

    Next, consider deleting the collector ring (bag holder) along with the 5" hose and reducer on the outlet of the blower. Replace it with a transition something like the one in this build:

    Good_jack620_WWAUS.jpg

    That will more than compensate for the addition of the SDD.

    If all that fails then think about a bigger blower.

    Or, just buy a 3HP cyclone, e.g., Oneida V-3000.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by David L Morse View Post
    First problem is the 4" ducting. Replace that with 5" for a big boost in performance.

    Next, consider deleting the collector ring (bag holder) along with the 5" hose and reducer on the outlet of the blower. Replace it with a transition something like the one in this build:

    Good_jack620_WWAUS.jpg

    That will more than compensate for the addition of the SDD.

    If all that fails then think about a bigger blower.

    Or, just buy a 3HP cyclone, e.g., Oneida V-3000.

    Hi David,

    I looked at the price of 5" piping and it is an order of magnitude more expansive than the 4" Sewer piping I'm using now - so this is not a good option for me. I thought about going to a 3hp 1900CFM like below from Busybee:
    https://www.busybeetools.com/product...csa-ct118.html

    If I bought the above Dust Collector then I would probably need a relay to switch my vacuum on as I have an 115V IVACPRO that can only handle 1.5HP DC. The boost would be 650CFM in theory, but I really doubt these numbers are accurate with all the piping and machines in the system. Hope that would be improvement enought to get things back to the way they were...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Suffolk, Va.
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    This is what I have and it works great.

    https://www.rockler.com/jet-3hp-cycl...BoCydAQAvD_BwE
    Michael Dilday
    Suffolk, Va.

  13. #13
    Still think my suggestion to temporarily remove bag has validity. If you remove the bag and don't notice any increase in flow then you know for sure adding a second canister won't help and all it will cost is a bit of your time. You could also contact Wynn Environmental with your question.

  14. #14
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    Tucson, Arizona
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    +1 on that!! I would measure the airflow cfm with the bottom bag removed to see if it makes a significant difference.
    David

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank DiSessa View Post
    Hi David,

    I looked at the price of 5" piping and it is an order of magnitude more expansive than the 4" Sewer piping I'm using now - so this is not a good option for me. I thought about going to a 3hp 1900CFM like below from Busybee:
    https://www.busybeetools.com/product...csa-ct118.html

    If I bought the above Dust Collector then I would probably need a relay to switch my vacuum on as I have an 115V IVACPRO that can only handle 1.5HP DC. The boost would be 650CFM in theory, but I really doubt these numbers are accurate with all the piping and machines in the system. Hope that would be improvement enought to get things back to the way they were...
    The usual approach to 5" ducting for hobby shops on a budget is 26ga (not 30ga) HVAC snaplock pipe. That's cost competitive with PVC.

    The performance increase you might with the linked DC depends on the size of the impeller in your JDS unit. If it's also 12" like the Craftex there will be very little change. CFM is determined by fan pressure and total system resistance. You have so much resistance on the intake side that reducing the resistance on the outlet will not change the total resistance by much. If the JDS has a 10" fan then you will see roughly a 20% improvement.

    4" duct has three times the resistance of 5" duct.

    A simple test is to remove the connection to the SDD and give it a feel. Do yoou have an ammeter? If so you can get some very informative relative flow measurements.

    Edit to add:

    If your current unit has a 12" fan you can do a quick test to simulate the switch to the Craftex. Disconnect the flex hose from the outlet of the blower and see how much subjective change in flowrate you get. Obviously you don't want to feed any dust to the system in this condition but it will give you good indication of the increase in flow you would get if there's no difference in fan diameter.
    Last edited by David L Morse; 02-27-2020 at 6:12 AM.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

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