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Thread: Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil

  1. #1
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    Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil

    Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil. Remember, I have not had Chemistry since high school, in the early 1980's.

    Norton Sharpening Oil - Highly refined Mineral Oil

    I was told that Norton Sharpening Oil is not much more than highly refined mineral oil and the MSDS was pretty easy to understand even for me:


    This product is a fully refined white mineral oil meeting the requirements of the National Formulary XVII and the requirements of the Food and Drug Administration as per 21 CFR 172.878. May contain up to 10ppm Tocopherols as stabilizer.



    Smith’s Sharpening Solution - Water with cleaners, lubricants, and emolients


    I had Smith’s Sharpening Solution explained to me as mentioned below, and when I looked at the MSDS, I said “yeah, OK, I can see that”:


    A Mixture of emollients, lubricants, cleaners and a mild corrosion inhibitor. Features built-in stone cleaning agents and rust/corrosion inhibitors. Excellent for lubricating your Arkansas or Diamond Stone when sharpening. Non-petroleum based with built-in stone cleaning agents and rust/corrosion inhibitors.

    Dan's Honing Oil - ???


    Then, I looked at the MSDS for Dan’s. I found an old post from 2014 that claimed that Dan’s contains Kerosene, but Dan’s site claims it is a Light Mineral Oil. Dan’s has a very distinctive odor, but I do not know the smell of Kerosene. The MSDS (from Cross Oil) reads as follows:



    1. (Cas: 0064742-53-6) MINERAL OIL, PETROLEUM DISTILLATES, HYDROTREATED (MILD) LIGHT NAPHTHENIC (77% - 100%)
    2. (Cas: 0000128-39-2) 2,6-DI-T-BUTYLPHENOL (0.0% - 0.3%)


    Specific chemical identity and/or exact percentage (concentration) of the composition has been withheld to protect confidentiality.

    Could this be mineral oil with essentially Kerosene in it?

    Nathan’s Natural Honing Oil - ???


    This is where things feel a little strange. Nathan’s Natural Honing Oil claims to be a Highly refined oil (sounds like Mineral Oil). Nathan’s smells about the same as Dan’s to me. The MSDS from “Superior Lubricants” reads as follows:



    1. (Chemical Name) Highly Refined Petroleum Base Oil 100% (CAS Number) Mixture




    Case - ???

    I asked Case for their MSDS, and I have no response.



    Gatco Hone Oil

    I do not know who to ask for the GATCO hone oil MSDS, but, I see things such as:


    Specially formulated FDA-approved honing oil is designed to insure the maximum suspension of metal fouling and abrasive particles for longer stone life and superior cutting efficiency. But this is where things get a little strange. On seller claims that it can be used for any sharpener that can use an oil or water. It contains protectans. It can even lube bolts to a door. Everyone specifically says “do not use OIL on your diamond stones”, but this stuff claims to act like an oil, but can be used on your diamond stones and it ships with Gatco’s set of diamond stones. Smith’s also works on diamond stones.



    Trend - light petroleum distillate with naphtha - ???


    Trend, which looks like the Gatco, claims to be a A Petroleum based lightweight fluid. I never bothered with Trend fluid because it is so expensive and I had never heard of anyone using it on anything other than diamond stones. The MSDS, looks like many of the others in that it is vaguely a petroleum product.



    1. Hydrotreated light distillate (petroleum) (CAS No) 64742-47-8 45.0 - 55.0% Asp. Tox - Cat.1 H304 (EC No) 265-149-8 EUH066 (EC Index No) 649-422-00-2
    2. Hydrotreated heavy naphtha (CAS No) 64742-48-9 30.0 - 40.0% Asp. Tox - Cat.1 H304 (EC No) 265-150-3 (EC Index No) 649-327-00-6 Flam. Liq. 4:H227 EUH066

  2. Generally the information on an SDS is there to check the regulatory boxes for hazard communication. Trade secret/competitive advantage considerations can result in them being pretty hit or miss (mostly miss in my experience) on actually providing much in the way of details beyond those that they are designed to provide.

    Somebody way more knowledgeable in organic chemistry will hopefully chime. Petroleum distillates covers a lot of ground... kind of like saying that that a highboy is "wood", when you are really wondering if it is Cuban mahogany or Honduran mahogany or African mahogany that isn't really mahogany. I think you will find that the
    2,6-DI-T-BUTYLPHENOL reported in Dan's is an antioxidant and UV stabilizer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Pitonyak View Post
    Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil. Remember, I have not had Chemistry since high school, in the early 1980's.
    [edited]
    What is it you want to understand?

    Best oil for use with your stones? If you have any of them, try them out and report your findings.

    Best all around? For me it is simple to pick up a pint of food grade mineral oil at the local supermarket. Then there are no worries about using it on wood utensils and cutting boards.

    Do the MSDS reports have anything to indicate if these are food safe or not to be used on items coming in contact with food?

    The next step would be to purchase a bottle of mineral oil and what ever solvent you want to give a try and mix up a small test batch.

    The supermarket mineral oil may be a bit thick for some. It has been working for me.

    On seller claims that it can be used for any sharpener that can use an oil or water.
    This doesn't necessarily mean it can be used on water stones. My read of this is if a stone can use oil or water, this product will work on such a stone.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    What is it you want to understand?

    Even if it is not entirely accurate, could it be ball-park correct to say that Dan's contains something similar to kerosene that probably acts as a thinner?

    I do own a gallon of food grade mineral oil, but, I expect that it will gum things up if I do not reduce it and just let it sit.

    I own all of the products listed except for the Trend product.

    I cannot really tell the difference between Norton's Honing Oil and "Premium honing oil", I expect them to be essentially the same thing.

    Some products were given to me, some were purchased.

    Andrew

  5. #5
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    I do own a gallon of food grade mineral oil, but, I expect that it will gum things up if I do not reduce it and just let it sit.
    Gum things up?

    Sometimes a puddle of good old store bought mineral oil sits on my stones for a few days without gumming things up.

    It doesn't seem to thicken or form a film like a polymerizing oil would.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Gum things up?

    Sometimes a puddle of good old store bought mineral oil sits on my stones for a few days without gumming things up.

    It doesn't seem to thicken or form a film like a polymerizing oil would.

    jtk
    I have an oil stone that I use on axes almost soaking in the food grade mineral oil, and I should probably pull it out, but.....

    Noah Wagener stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Wagener View Post
    I started out using Norton honing oil on Arkansas stones and switched to baby oil as mentioned on here and other places as the Norton oil is so expensive. The baby oil is pretty gummy and messy.
    Then you have this post by Warren Mickley:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....84#post2210784

    The bold portion was made bold by me, not by warren.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Joshua, you want an oil that is viscous enough to suspend the steel particles, so that even if your fluid is black with steel the stone does not load up. Fluids like wd40, kerosene, water, and mineral spirits do not suspend the steel particles very well, so you have to keep cleaning and flushing the stone. I have used Smith's oil and Norton's oil. Both are very nice for honing, but not the cheapest oils available.

    Generally oils are a mixture of various different weight oils and you sort of get an average viscosity. An oil that has the right viscosity, however, can lose the lighter components to evaporation and become gummy, especially if the stone is left unused for a period. The better quality oils like the specially made honing oils have components in a tighter range so that they retain the viscosity and do not gum up.

    I used to use a mixture of motor oil and kerosene, which is nice because you can adjust the viscosity in the winter. I stopped using it because I found that exposure to kerosene in full time work irritated my throat. I now use thread cutting oil, which is cheap, but it would be a problem for someone not using the stones regularly, because it is not as highly refined as honing oil.
    And now, I did not miss your comment just a little bit further down

    I noticed that there is a difference when I use Dan's Honing Oil than when I use Norton's mineral oil. If I have reason to believe that what they added is at least somewhat similar to Kerosene, I might try adding a bit of Kerosene to some of my Mineral oil (food grade or even the Norton oil) to see if I like it better. I was also thinking that if i did that, I could probably buy the odorless Kerosene; for example, Kleenheet. So I am curious what some of those added things are likely to be doing to the oil to change the properties.

    I have found that I prefer to use my diamond stones with Smith's than to use them dry. From what I can tell, this will also prevent rust, which is probably a good thing since I saw a bit of rust (or discoloring) on one of my diamond stones in one section even though I work hard to dry them off when I am finished.

    I ordered the Gatco stuff so that I can give that a try on my diamond stones.

  7. #7
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    You might try looking for restaurant supply businesses in your area if you want to try to find a lighter viscosity mineral oil.

    You may also want to learn a bit about viscosity measuring if you really want to get into quantifying your various oils. It might be as easy as timing how fast a ball bearing drops in a column of oil.

    At times my mineral oil does seem a touch heavy with little feed back. A lighter oil, of course, would feel lighter and end up with less lubrication between the stone and the edge being worked. This would improve the feedback.

    Maybe a little thinner in my oil would make sharpening a bit easier. Maybe one day my curiosity will get me to do some experiments with honing oil.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 02-18-2020 at 8:55 PM. Reason: wording
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #8
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    Wondering what the 3 in 3in1 oil consists of.....since that is all I use...

  9. #9
    One thing I noticed on MSDS's when I used to work with them is that for proprietary things, it seems like they were written by the marketing department and read a little like an advertisement, but if they were for more of a commodity (e.g. sand, table salt, glycerin, etc) they emphasized all the potential bad and hazardous things, probably for liability reasons. If you read the MSDS for sodium bicabonate (baking soda) you would never eat a biscuit again. Now admittedly, these are written more for continuous workplace exposure, and some of those effects can happen in that environment with even common substances. I worked with enough petroleum products in my youth that I get a rash now from exposure to mineral spirits, kerosene, and similar volatiles.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Wondering what the 3 in 3in1 oil consists of.....since that is all I use...
    For you Steve, I looked around and...

    3-in-OneOil is a general-purpose lubricating oil designed for bicycles. Theysay 3 because it is supposed to be able to clean, lubricate andprotect (from corrosion). Ironically, although their tag line beginswith “clean”, it is a non-detergent oil.
    Whatit contains:



    1. SeverelyHydrotreated Heavy Naphthenic Oil (cas: 64742-52-5) >97% and isNot hazardous
    2. Naphtha,petroleum (cas: 64742-47-8) <2% and is Aspiration ToxicityCategory 1
    3. Non-HazardousIngredients Mixture <3% Not Hazardous



    Ithink that the Naphtha will thin the oil and clean metal. I thinkthat Naphthenic Oil in particular is very good at dissolving thingsand is often used in cleaners. Also, it is supposed to be good at lowtemperatures. Oh, and I think that it should NOT leave a film.


    AndI found this:
    Whatare Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic? They arehigh quality naphthenic base oils with a low pour point and goodsolvency properties. They have been extensively hydrotreatedresulting in low aromatic, clear, bright and less colored mineral oilwith excellent stability.
    Howare Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic used?Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic base oil areintended for use as blending components in specialty lubricants,greases, metalworking oils and functional fluids

    My only concern would be if it is able to float away the resulting metal shavings, but.... if people can use the stones dry or with just water, it will surely do better than that


    And yes, it seems that some people prefer to use an Arkansas stone without lubrication, but, then they have to do some specific cleaning later. I once heard an opinion stated that if it lubricates, it will reduce cutting. If it is too thin, it will not float away the generated metal. So, you want to find something that suits your style and need for effectiveness... But I think that I am not experienced enough to have a strong opinion on this yet; but Lord knows I am trying.

  11. #11
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    Worked in the rubber industry for over 20 years....imagine the MSDS for all the stuff we would add to the batch....just to make a simple water hose.....let alone a fuel line....

    Main things I got from all that...."Zinc Chills" and COPD. Some of the people I worked with....died of cancer.

  12. #12
    I personally use Walmart's brand of mineral oil (around $1.00) I figure if its designed to drink, it should be safe on your hands. By the way my hands have never been constipated since I started using this!

  13. #13
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    Also have used 3:1 oil for decades on my oil stone. Does not gum it up, just wipe off with a rag to clean when finished. A new stone will take quite a bit of clean oil to start with but after that very little. As for the blade, just wipe and store.

    Light paraffin oil makes a good electric razor lubricant in a small squeeze bottle, a teaspoon should last about 5 years. I do dismantle the electric razor and sharpen the flat cutter surfaces up to 10,000 grit on water stones, a big improvement on the factory sharpening.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Murray Ohio View Post
    I personally use Walmart's brand of mineral oil (around $1.00) I figure if its designed to drink, it should be safe on your hands. By the way my hands have never been constipated since I started using this!
    Inquiring minds want to know, where your hand constipated before you started using mineral oil? :-)

    We had a cow (when I was younger and living at home) that ate too many green apples and was very sick. We expected her to die. We force fed her literally gallons of mineral oil over two days. Got things moving.

  15. #15
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    Andrew, a quick search on the price of Dan's honing oil and a some math results in a $190 per gallon product. Compare that with about $15 for a gallon of mineral oil. I'm wondering what is it that you want to know, after all the discussion this past weeks it's pretty clear that there is no "true" answer, use whatever fits your style and wallet. Also, from my quick research, it appears mineral oil does not evaporate. I wipe my stones clean after use and keep them in wooden boxes, that takes care of any potential gumming up.

    Rafael

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