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Thread: Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil

  1. #31
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    I thought about this when I bought some high flash point solvent for a parts washer today. No time to look at it any further yet, and haven't even opened the 5 gallon can. Kerosene works fine for cleaning tractor parts, but this stuff is supposed to be safer. It's also supposed to have less smell than Kerosene, but Kero never smelled bad to me.

    I was thinking this stuff, and Klotz 2-stroke oil might have promise. Klotz smells great when burning it in a saw, and has a great reputation for making engines last a long time.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 02-19-2020 at 6:00 PM.

  2. #32
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    Hi All,

    A few comments, which may help understand some of the terms in the MSDS.

    In my opinion I am not an extreme expert in such matters, but have worked with solvents and various refinery streams somewhat extensively on and off, etc., for almost 30 years in my work as an applied research chemist.

    Please understand that the following is "to the best of my knowledge" but I do not claim every word to be perfectly correct.

    I believe the term "mineral" in the terms "mineral spirits" and "mineral oil" came about to differentiate distilled crude oil product from previously existing solvents such as turpentine which were distilled from living things. (Turpentine is distilled from material obtained from evergreen trees.) The term "mineral" was chosen because these are distilled from crude oil, which ultimately came from the ground, and since the crude oil came from the ground, it was originally classed as a "mineral."

    "Spirits" often means some essence of a material that can be separated from that material by distillation, or now in some cases by extraction using a solvent. Spirits have come to mean relatively lower boiling of the materials thus separated from the starting material.

    "Oils" on the other hand are materials that are much higher boiling. Thus "mineral spirits" are lower boiling than "mineral oils." The boiling point of the hydrocarbons in refinery streams are determined by the number of carbon atoms in the atoms in that fraction. I have read that mineral spirits are typically made up of hydrocarbon fractions containing molecule sizes of from 7 carbon atoms to 12 carbon atoms or so. This would correlate well with my personal experience in dealing with such solvents, and I have worked extensively with solvents in that carbon number range, and many solvents of other carbon number ranges as well.

    My guess is that mineral oils are made up of molecules running from more like 20 to 30 carbon atoms. My recollection is that once you get to narrow distillation fraction containing mostly something like 25 carbon atoms, the material becomes a semisolid to a solid material at room temperature. (I am not taking a wild guess about this, as I have done these fractional distillations myself many times, but do not recall the exact molecular size that such occurs.) It is possible that my estimate of the carbon number size is also a bit too high. I have not analyzed any of the material to see, but may some of these times.

    The term "light" means relatively low boiling for a given type of material, meaning it is that fraction of the material made up of molecules having a smaller number of carbon atoms than the material as a whole. The term "distillate" means a product resulting from a distillation, and means the product that was evaporated overhead and condensed by this distillation process.

    At any rate the bigger molecules (those containing more carbon atoms) have higher boiling points and viscosities than do the smaller molecules. Also, hydrocarbon molecules of different chemical families vary greatly in physical properties, so it is possible to have "oils" of larger carbon number, if from the right hydrocarbon family.

    The term "hydrotreated" means that hydrogen has been reacted with a hydrocarbon fraction to change to composition of the compounds that can react with the hydrogen. These compounds are typically compounds with what are called double bonds, aromatic compounds, etc., to produce compounds that do not have these compositions. This process greatly reduces the toxicity, the potential for odor, and the tendency for the fraction to form gums, etc. The term "highly refined" can mean a lot of different things, as it can refer to many different refinery process, but it can mean hydrogenation, careful distillation, de-sulfurization, etc. This generally means a much "cleaner" product, etc.

    I refer to refinery products in this discussion, because all of the materials listed by the OP in the MSDS ultimately come from these refinery steams. There are multiple names for exactly the same refinery streams. Yes, certain diesels, kerosines, jet fuels, etc. are virtually the same stuff or extremely similar stuff. However, they do vary somewhat, even if similar.

    Naphtha is typically a material of a boiling range some what like mineral spirits.

    I think virtually none of the honing oils, and other materials, discussed in the post contain more than trace amounts of sulfur bearing compounds. Those were done away with by the reformulating of fuels many years ago. Removing the sulur is now one of the first steps in the refining process in virtually every refinery in the US. This was done to remove sulfur dioxide from exhaust, this due to environmental laws.

    "FDA" mineral oil means that the mineral oil meets even more stringent standards for such things as toxicity, etc. The 2,6-di-t-butylphenol, is an anti-oxidant. It is almost certainly in the better stuff to stop oxygen from reacting with the hydrocarbon compounds, as oxygen can add across what are called tertiary carbon/hydrogen bonds in the material, and those compounds and the break down products from them, cause the material to have a strong odor. They are not present to prevent rust formation.

    Thus, the stuff listed as "highly refined, or hydrotreated" is good stuff. In my view these are more desirable from some view points. They should be lower odor and less toxic. They are also less likely to form gums, etc. They are also more expensive ingredients in the honing oils than the same type of material that has not been "highly refined" or "hydrotreated." The FDA type of mineral oil will this type of material, or probably even better.

    There is more than one way to make the oil with the correct viscosity, density, etc. One way is to thin thicker material with less viscose material. The problem with this approach,which is likely the way almost all of it is made, is that the lower boiling material can eventually evaporate out of the product leaving a product that is too thick. A better way is to distill the material to get a boiling fraction that has exactly the right properties. The advantage of this approach is that the viscosity will not change with time, because material that evaporates out will be extremely similar to what remains so that the properties will not change. This, however, will be a very expensive approach because having the needed distillation equipment is a very expensive proposition. The distillation itself can also be expensive. Somewhat of a compromise can be made by trying to find feedstocks that are as close as possible to the ideal. Thus the solvent used to thin the thick stuff will have a minimum of the most volatile compounds.

    It has been pointed out that the terms "mineral spirits" and "mineral oil" are somewhat generic, and the meanings vary from company to company and product to product. This is because a refinery supplying feedstock to another company to use in making the honing oil is not going to design specific equipment for one tiny product. The equipment and distillations vary from refinery to refinery, so "mineral spirits" made from a feedstock from one refinery is very like to vary from the "mineral spirits" made from feedstocks from a different refinery.

    The fact is that the honing oil folks do not buy the feedstocks they use for honing oils from refineries however, they are far too tiny in volume for a refinery to mess with. They buy the materials from specialty chemical companies that further distill and/or treat feedstocks that they in turn have purchased from refineries, or they more likely buy the feedstocks from jobbers that have in turn bought the materials from the specialty chemical company. These sources often deal with the small volumes that such folks need.

    I have no comments on the water based stuff.

    I am sure this ramble is somewhat confusing and pretty long so my apology for that.

    That said I have done my best to explain some of the terms mean. If you want to risk it, I will be glad to answer any questions that you might want to know about, to the best of my ability.

    Regards,

    Stew
    Last edited by Stew Denton; 02-20-2020 at 12:14 AM.

  3. #33
    Thanks for this, Stew. I had hinted at some of these things, but your explanations are much more thorough.

    I had also hinted at some practical considerations. For example gumming up may or may not be a problem depending on frequency of use. A guy who is adding fresh oil to his stones ten times a day has no worries about the oil thickening. A fellow who sharpens his knife every few months or only during hunting season will want a more expensive oil that will not gum up.

    From experience, volatile components in the oil are not a problem for someone working five hours a week, but they cause irritation and concerns for someone who is constantly sharpening for 40 hours a week. Odorless spirits are probably less trouble, but still not something you want to be breathing with any regularity.

  4. #34
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    I use neatsfoot oil, but mineral oil sold as a laxative at the drug-store is next best.

  5. #35
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    Stew, thank you for your explanation, it's very good, I have now a better understanding about oils and spirits. I'll stick with mineral oil marketed as food grade and continue to experiment with neatsfoot oil (I did notice a smell). I'm definitely not inclined to try the different honing oils as it seems to me it's just overpriced mineral oil. Rafael

  6. #36
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    Charles, is there a particular brand you prefer?

    Thanks.
    Kevin

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael Herrera View Post
    Stew, thank you for your explanation, it's very good, I have now a better understanding about oils and spirits. I'll stick with mineral oil marketed as food grade and continue to experiment with neatsfoot oil (I did notice a smell). I'm definitely not inclined to try the different honing oils as it seems to me it's just overpriced mineral oil. Rafael
    This is weird. Stew wrote twenty paragraphs about why honing oil would be more expensive than run of the mill mineral oil, and Rafael writes "honing oil ... it's just overpriced mineral oil"

  8. #38
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    Warren, I wrote that because that is what seems to be the main ingredient of some honing oils. I looked quickly at some prices and that makes some products well over US$100 per gallon, that's pretty absurd to buy when one can use mineral oil (or presumably neatsfoot oil). This also reminds me of the time I bought a brush cleaning fluid that turned out to be mineral spirits, but just branded differently and sold at a higher price. I became skeptical of generic products branded and marketed aa being somewhat special by a manufacturer. Rafael

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael Herrera View Post
    Warren, I wrote that because that is what seems to be the main ingredient of some honing oils. I looked quickly at some prices and that makes some products well over US$100 per gallon, that's pretty absurd to buy when one can use mineral oil (or presumably neatsfoot oil). This also reminds me of the time I bought a brush cleaning fluid that turned out to be mineral spirits, but just branded differently and sold at a higher price. I became skeptical of generic products branded and marketed aa being somewhat special by a manufacturer. Rafael
    You are missing the whole point, Rafael. They don't just use crappy mineral oil in honing oils. They use a more highly refined oil, which explains the price differential. Is this over your head?

    I buy clock oil for my brass movement clocks. It costs $4 or $5 an ounce. I used 3-in-one oil when I was a boy, which is all right in the short term, but likely to thicken over time. Clock oil does not have to be food safe; it has to have molecular weight in a tight range, not just a mixture with the right viscosity.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 02-21-2020 at 10:18 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Adams View Post
    Charles, is there a particular brand you prefer?

    Thanks.
    Kevin
    Just the drugstore's generic brand.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    You are missing the whole point, Rafael. They don't just use crappy mineral oil in honing oils. They use a more highly refined oil, which explains the price differential. Is this over your head?
    Now for the real question: Does it matter? Enough to be 100x the cost?

    I honestly have never seen anything to suggest that it does, so I just use what is on-hand.
    ~mike

    happy in my mud hut

  12. #42
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    Thanks, Charles, I see some at our local Tractor Supply store. I’ve been using Norton’s and will try Neatsfoot oil.

    Kevin

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Adams View Post
    Thanks, Charles, I see some at our local Tractor Supply store. I’ve been using Norton’s and will try Neatsfoot oil.

    Kevin
    I'm sorry I thought you were asking about mineral oil.

    Fiebing's is the brand of neatsfoot oil in my shop at the moment.

  14. #44
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    Well thanks again as that is the one I see at the local store. And it’s half the price of Amazon!

  15. #45
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    Just used the 3in1 oil last night.....and it wasn't just for the stones....having derusted all of the threaded parts on a handplane I picked up...to make sure the parts will stay rust free...had the iron to work over..
    Heart of Ohio, BAD edge.JPG
    Nicks needed ground out, back needed a better flattening....2 oil stone, then wet-or-dry up to 2000 grit, then the strop....oil on the stones, and the paper, none on the strop...
    Heart of Ohio, test track.JPG
    And...
    Heart of Ohio, Moxxon TP.JPG
    Still one tiny nick left, will get that at the next sharpening....Plane is a Millers Falls No. 15, Type 3....
    Heart of Ohio, 3 jacks.JPG
    Makes the jack plane set complete.

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