Help me understand the MSDS for Honing Oil

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew, a quick search on the price of Dan's honing oil and a some math results in a $190 per gallon product. Compare that with about $15 for a gallon of mineral oil. I'm wondering what is it that you want to know, after all the discussion this past weeks it's pretty clear that there is no "true" answer, use whatever fits your style and wallet. Also, from my quick research, it appears mineral oil does not evaporate. I wipe my stones clean after use and keep them in wooden boxes, that takes care of any potential gumming up.

Rafael

I was hoping that someone would see what was written and have some comments about possible purposes for what you see. For example, and I spent a lot of time to make these guesses, I believe that:

Someone explained the MSDS for Smith's stuff in very generic easy terms for me with things such as "cleaning agents" and similar. I was hoping that someone would do the same for say Dan's. Something like:

1. 2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol is a colorless solid alkylated phenol and its derivatives are used industrially as UV stabilizers and antioxidants for hydrocarbon-based products ranging from petrochemicals to plastics.
2. Napthenic oils have high enough viscosity to be considered an "oil", but they have good solvent properties. They can be somewhat volatile but don't have to be. It's a pretty large group of compounds. Naps are used where high solvencey is needed. So you might get some cleaning action, or similar. The problem is that they have a tendency to oxidize (I think), but that 6-Di-tert-butylphenol should help with that.

I believe that light Napthenic oil has hydrocarbons in the range of C15 through C30 (depending on many things, perhaps even lower). I do not fully understand what that means, but I think that "C6" means that there are 6 carbon atoms in each molecule. Mineral Oil seems to have carbon numbesr between C15 through C50, but Mineral oil is specifically listed as its own thing with Dan's MSDS. So just generally what does that stuff in there do / mean? I had expected to say something like:

That stuff is vaguely what is in Kerosene, but, I think that is not the case, even though someone indicated that six years ago, Dan's had kerosene in it. I mean it might still have that.

I started using Smith's when I figured out that it might help against rust with my diamond stones; since I was seeing signs that might be an issue for me. Sure, Mineral Oil should also help prevent rust, but I wanted to know what that other stuff in there might be doing.

[Prashun Patel]

Paraffin wax, Mineral oil, mineral spirits, and naphtha are all hydrocarbons in their pure form. They were the purest form of “oil” as we think of it. They differ in viscosity and (I believe) density.

The commercial forms may be blends of these or may not have the inpurities removed. This is the case with kerosene. Kerosene is mineral spirits that hasn’t been refined.

Because they are all similar chemically, they can be blended to achieve the right evaporation or lubrication properties you are after.

Most “oil” based lubes, honing oils, varnishes use some sort of the above as the solvent. Where it gets tricky is in water based, where it really means water-compatible, not necessarily water-containing. These can have tricky and proprietary solvent blends that don’t always appear on the sds so you don’t always know what you are getting.

[James Pallas]

I do as I learned years ago. I use food grade mineral oil. I was taught that the oil was used to float the swarf not necessarily as a lubricant. Use enough oil so there is a thin sheet on the stone. When finished sharpening scrape the excess along with the swarf from the stone. Do not wipe the stone with anything that would make lint, rags, paper towels etc. I use the end of a card scraper. Cover the stone when not in use to keep dust off and slow down any evaporation if there is any. Apply a line of clean oil each time you use the stone or if it doesn’t have enough film to float the swarf. If the oil is too thick the stone won’t cut well, if too thin you mash the swarf into the stone. If the stone looks shiny when in use ok, if you see dry spots not enough.

[Rafael Herrera]

well, again from my quick internet searches, the term mineral oil is not very specific by itself. So, to not make this more complicated, I'd say let's just describe mineral oil as a "odorless thin oil". Kerosene (known in other places as "paraphine") is a combustible oil, but it's not "mineral oil". If it's not in the MSDS for Dan's, then it probably does not contain it. Naphthenic oil is "mineral oil". I understan from the wiki page that 2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol helps prevent the product to degrade when exposed to light ("UV stabilizer") and inhibits oxidation, which I suppose if you cover iron or steel with it it will inhibit rust.

It's up to you to chose what to use, I use 409 on my one diamond stone, rust has not been a big deal in my case. I've been using food grade mineral oil (whatever that means) on my oilstones without issues. On the other hand, some people commented that they use neatsfoot oil, I was curious and ordered some. It's much thicker than mineral oil, and just slightly more expensive. I have yet to gain some experience with it.

Rafael

[Jim Koepke]

I've been using food grade mineral oil (whatever that means) on my oilstones without issues.

Food grade means it is safe to use with food processing equipment. A non-food grade mineral oil could conceivably contain materials harmful to human health.

In chemistry there are chemicals graded for use by industry. Acetic acid used in metal processing industries may not by usable in the photographic material handling industry. A minuscule amount of iron in a metal cleaning solution would be no problem whereas it might leave some ugly stains on photo films or prints. (Maybe there isn't much photographic use these days, but back when it was my job it was more important to know.)

jtk

[Dan Schocke]

This article should help explain why the names for some of these compounds are pretty vague:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_distillation

There's an example of refining crude oil at the end of the article, but basically each of the compound names represents a plate or tray in a fractional distillation column where a certain mix of hydrocarbons is usually present. It's really difficult to isolate a specific hydrocarbon, so bulk commodities like "gasoline" or "kerosene" or "diesel oil" are always a mix of different hydrocarbons that are roughly similar in thermal properties. Each one of those can be further refined with more distillation or via chemical reaction to produce a more consistent product.

Hydrotreating is a process that is used to saturate the hydrocarbon chains with hydrogen atoms instead of more reactive things like Oxygen, Nitrogen, Sulfur, etc. This is probably way more important in terms of preventing the "gummy" experience than evaporation of lighter hydrocarbons in the mix.

--Dan

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The commercial forms may be blends of these or may not have the inpurities removed. This is the case with kerosene. Kerosene is mineral spirits that hasn’t been refined.

Because they are all similar chemically, they can be blended to achieve the right evaporation or lubrication properties you are after.

Most “oil” based lubes, honing oils, varnishes use some sort of the above as the solvent. Where it gets tricky is in water based, where it really means water-compatible, not necessarily water-containing. These can have tricky and proprietary solvent blends that don’t always appear on the sds so you don’t always know what you are getting.

One of the most useful explanations for me, thankyou.

I was wondering why someone had recommended using Mineral Spirits rather than Kerosene. I have Mineral Spirits sitting around my shop, not Kerosene. Given that it is a more refined Kerosene, it all makes sense now.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

well, again from my quick internet searches, the term mineral oil is not very specific by itself. So, to not make this more complicated, I'd say let's just describe mineral oil as a "odorless thin oil". Kerosene (known in other places as "paraphine") is a combustible oil, but it's not "mineral oil". If it's not in the MSDS for Dan's, then it probably does not contain it. Naphthenic oil is "mineral oil". I understan from the wiki page that 2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol helps prevent the product to degrade when exposed to light ("UV stabilizer") and inhibits oxidation, which I suppose if you cover iron or steel with it it will inhibit rust.

It's up to you to chose what to use, I use 409 on my one diamond stone, rust has not been a big deal in my case. I've been using food grade mineral oil (whatever that means) on my oilstones without issues. On the other hand, some people commented that they use neatsfoot oil, I was curious and ordered some. It's much thicker than mineral oil, and just slightly more expensive. I have yet to gain some experience with it.

Rafael

I have a bottle of highly refined "paraphine", that was suggested as a better smelling fuel for a kerosene lamp. And now it makes sense. I wonder about the shelf life, it is probably no good now.

I have read that some people like using 409 or even cheap glass cleaner (probably has ammonia in it).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This article should help explain why the names for some of these compounds are pretty vague:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_distillation

There's an example of refining crude oil at the end of the article, but basically each of the compound names represents a plate or tray in a fractional distillation column where a certain mix of hydrocarbons is usually present. It's really difficult to isolate a specific hydrocarbon, so bulk commodities like "gasoline" or "kerosene" or "diesel oil" are always a mix of different hydrocarbons that are roughly similar in thermal properties. Each one of those can be further refined with more distillation or via chemical reaction to produce a more consistent product.

Hydrotreating is a process that is used to saturate the hydrocarbon chains with hydrogen atoms instead of more reactive things like Oxygen, Nitrogen, Sulfur, etc. This is probably way more important in terms of preventing the "gummy" experience than evaporation of lighter hydrocarbons in the mix.

--Dan

This puts many things in place in my head. As a simple example, I knew that if you distilled water that contained certain chemicals, a simple distillation would leave those chemicals that vaporized at the same time or before water. I was aware that you could do something that would pull things at different temperatures, and that WIKI link really demonstrates this.

I also had not considered why things I was reading mentioned things related to boiling point and vaporization temperature (did I say that right?); because it matters in the distillation process. Perfect!

[Graham Haydon]

Have you tried neatsfoot oil?

[steven c newman]

Isn't Kerosene also Jet Fuel? Also part of what WD40 has in it.....


used to run a KeroSun heater..a LOT.....$5 a gallon for what my Late FIL used to call "Coal Oil".....

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Have you tried neatsfoot oil?

I have not simply because I do not have any around. I know that it used to be a standard to use, but, so many people tell me that they thin it 50/50 with Kerosene when they use it because they feel it is a bit heavy.

Ken Hatch mentioned that kerosene has changed and is "drier" than the kerosene we used on the farm many years ago. It seems, however, that kerosene is a good cleaner of swarf clogged stones.


William Adams claimed that when he looked at Neatsfoot oil, it had "petroleum products" in it, so be sure that you buy 100% neatsfoot oil.


Side note: Neatsfoot oil is made from cow bones and feat I think.


George Wilson says that Neatsfoot Oil stinks. I think that I used to use it on saddles, and do not remember it smelling bad, but, I am old and have not oiled a saddle in years so it might have been some other kind of leather oil.

[steven c newman]

Always used the stuff on Baseball gloves....at least the new ones.....made the gloves a bit less stiff.

[Rafael Herrera]

The Soyuz rockets use kerosene and liquid oxygen, as well as the Saturn V rockets that carried the astronauts to the moon. It's short of amazing what good engineering can do.

Isn't Kerosene also Jet Fuel? Also part of what WD40 has in it.....

[mike stenson]

Isn't Kerosene also Jet Fuel? Also part of what WD40 has in it.....
..

Kerosene and diesel are very similar. You can pretty much substitute them in a pinch. JP4 is a 50/50 kerosene/gasoline mix as I recall, and JP8 is kerosene based.