1982 Martin T-23

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah they are plastic in this 80’s era machine.

And you know if they were thin plastic prone to breaking under exposure to me and my use I would 100% remake them as the earlier machines out of metal.

But they are not metal and honestly a pretty cool plastic of yesteryear not the crap we find today. So I find all the talking well worth it if someone can lead to a solution comparable of the originals.

I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone said just make some wooden ones with chicken wire, or or or. That’s not my thing.

Even when I’m done with this machine it will remain in impeccable and if I have my way original condition and working order. The next over if it does not get smelted will know it’s all original and have nothing to question as it will be obvious. Hopefully they don’t even know the these covers are not original and if they do they see they are exact copies.

Honestly I also considered reproducing them in metal like the earlier machines and I already did the Craigslist search for the appropriate welder as I know I’ll find other uses for it. I also fully trust myself to lear to weld so. But again if I can I want these to be exact replicas.

Just find a competent welder that has experience with aluminum, I think TIG welding, and be done with all this handwringing, and talk of plastic and fiberglass patching.

Not rocket science.
Not hard.
And not expensive.

Do it the right way.
It's only a crack, and without seeing it, it is non-structural.

Problem solved, next.....

[peter gagliardi]

I must have misunderstood. I was pretty sure I read it as "a crack in the cast aluminum dust hood" .
I'm just bustin on ya, but......

[Patrick Walsh]

Nah Peter like I said about cnc I have my opinion and others have theirs and that’s ok with me and I hope it’s ok with them.

I get that my perspective is often off the wall but you know I’m doing this stuff for my own enjoyment and because for me it’s important. I don’t and pretty much expect many to shake their heads as we all shake out heads. I try my best when shaking my head to not actually pass judgment on the person but I do it just the same as the next guy.

I was thinking In response to your last response. If I was into old cars I’d be the guy that refused to retrofit a modern starter and was willing to still hand crank the dam thing. I’d never retrofit a windshield on a car that did not have one or was preferred without one. I’d deal with the bugs in my teeth. All that is what makes this fun to me.

Pretty much I like these machines as that really they left nothing to really be improved on from the perspective of indavidual using the dam thing to make one off items. And pretty much that’s exactly what I do. More so now then ever. At least for now gone are the days of making piles of stiles and rails and honestly that is as repetitive as my work ever has become. If it became more repetitive I’d do my best to find another way of making a living as I’d find zero enjoyment in it.

But and in response to you but, I know mountains out of mole hills just run the dam machine.

Electrician comes Thursday after work to give me a quote. One step at a time..





an

I must have misunderstood. I was pretty sure I read it as "a crack in the cast aluminum dust hood" .
I'm just bustin on ya, but......

[Malcolm McLeod]

Back in the day - about when your '80s' monster was built - I dealt with a lot of injection molding and extrusions in various polymers.

I knew the processes, tho' am not an expert on the chemistry. I do know that plastics will not age terribly well. They will become increasing brittle with exposure to UV, heat, some chemicals, etc. And sometimes just air, as the volatile components cook off over time (depends on the specific polymer).

So repairs to the part in question may 'hold', but the repair material may simply shift the point of failure to the next stress concentration.

Bottom line, if this is to be a user and the part in question is not cosmetic, I'd look at replacement.

...Can't see the part in question on my phone, but getting a new part manufactured will be UGLY expensive I bet (thinking >$1000 to hang an injection mold and shoot 1 part). CNC, 3D print, or 'pour molding' a copy may be only affordable options. ...Or buy NOS off the shelf from manufacturer?

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m looking to make a brand new replacement. I have given thought to the fact that plastic will degrade vrs metal. It is also more damage prone. If I can get them to look the part of the plastic mostly regarding profile curves so forth and so on I will probably settle on metal and paint them.

But I am thinking there has to be a modern plastic that will not deteriorate and is not prone to being brittle or cracking.

Back in the day - about when your '80s' monster was built - I dealt with a lot of injection molding and extrusions in various polymers.

I knew the processes, tho' am not an expert on the chemistry. I do know that plastics will not age terribly well. They will become increasing brittle with exposure to UV, heat, some chemicals, etc. And sometimes just air, as the volatile components cook off over time (depends on the specific polymer).

So repairs to the part in question may 'hold', but the repair material may simply shift the point of failure to the next stress concentration.

Bottom line, if this is to be a user and the part in question is not cosmetic, I'd look at replacement.

...Can't see the part in question on my phone, but getting a new part manufactured will be UGLY expensive I bet (thinking >$1000 to hang an injection mold and shoot 1 part). CNC, 3D print, or 'pour molding' a copy may be only affordable options. ...Or buy NOS off the shelf from manufacturer?

[Patrick Walsh]

Got her out of the van.

Great news the van didn’t even flinch from having the machine in it for three days.

Started with all my favorite chemicals. I have come to find I have a specific sequence regarding the use of chemicals. Crazy but all those get used.

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The machine had some spray on rust inhibitor wax like coating on it. It came off very very easy to my surprise.

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Then onto a wire wheel on a grinder and the maroon scotch brite routine.

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A short time later.

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I’m not done with the table top yet. I only got about 45 minutes to tend to everything today and I actually sprayed the internals of the ,aching down with compressed air and cleaned the whole exterior with some caustic chemicals.

I’ll do quite a bit more but the heavy stuff is all off. Namely the tables will need much more work to get a uniform finish if I even can. The tables on this machine ar way more beat than I’d like them to be and not perfectly flat to boot. The out of flat I don’t think will affect it in use as it’s the front righ most operators side is diving down a bit. Otherwise they are flat right to left front to back at the spindle and on all four sides. The diagonal however in one direction is not flat. This is the same exact issue I was having with my t75. And no I’m not using the same straight edge.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, does the large table ring swivel around so the fence can be directed anywhere so the tilt function can go either direction.

I admire your desire to fix the doors. I'd have that goal but probably would be looking at the doors with damage forever. Dave

[Malcolm McLeod]

I’m looking to make a brand new replacement. I have given thought to the fact that plastic will degrade vrs metal. It is also more damage prone. If I can get them to look the part of the plastic mostly regarding profile curves so forth and so on I will probably settle on metal and paint them.

But I am thinking there has to be a modern plastic that will not deteriorate and is not prone to being brittle or cracking.

I'm sure things have improved some in the polymer world in the last 40 years, but 90% of plastics are designed to be cheap and so disposable. Emphasis on 'disposable'. Another 8% are not cheap, but still disposable. Last 2% are REALLY NOT CHEAP and semi-disposable. ....Don't get any on you as my SWAG splatters on the wall.

I've followed your iron restorations and just trying to manage expectations. I'd figure you'll get the same life span out of a new plastic as the old - maybe 30-40 years? If that works for you, then speed on brother!!

[Patrick Walsh]

The inside of this machine is in great shape. As is the outside to be honest. A couple eyesores but nothing I can’t tend to and bring to my satisfaction without a full restoration. Honestly everything under the table is in great shape minus the stupid plastic louvers.

Again even those I can figure out.

The tables though man they are ugly. But the woodworker in me is pretty sure they will not affect use at all. I could be wrong. I’ll make some cuts and find out. If not I take a trip to Michigan.

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They also do not have the panes ribs I am used to with my t75 or my new t54 for that matter. At first to thought maybe the tables had already been re ground or something. But these tables have engravings and those engravings are completely intact.

The tables not only are not flat but they have tiny “in most cases” dings all over them. They also have scratches on them mostly where the fence would be slidden and these scratches look like someone took sandpaper to them. Again no of these cosmetic damages effect the flatness of the tables one bit as they are extremely shallow. They are ugly but that’s it. I can live with them though.

The fact is this will not be my last vintage Martin t23 and if this is just one of a stable and I get my show piece tenon table I’ll be happy and not care. Or this machine becomes a parts machine and I find a tenon table machine and another non tenon table machine.

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Instead of the planed ribs I’m used to with Martins these tables have a texture that’s constantly inconstant but subtle enough I can’t feel it but I can see it. I. Suspect someone didn’t do something terrible to them at some point. Dam employees and or novice woodworkers who don’t understand how to care for or maintain machinery. But that’s speculation as I also have no idea what’s going on her.

All said I will get this machine to a place I’m very happy with no restoration. I may have to grind the tables but I doubt it. I don’t want to loose the engravings but if I have to I will.

Spindle is .003 at the tip near the nut. It’s zero way down low. Again I have no idea how acceptable this is or not and I’ll just have to make some cuts. The spindle spins so smooth the though it’s bits with zero play. The rise fall and bevel are just dreamy.

Some aigner fences the dust covers, extension tables the Wegomatic powerfeeder and this thing is a porche compared to the scmi t130’s of the same area and they are very nice.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes it does swivel although I have yet to try. The gomad at work I sourced for my boss seems to be stuck.

I can’t live with it. Things like that drive me as nuts as a machine with excessive ru out or wanky fences.

Now if I was gonna throw this at a couple employees I’d think different. But then I wouldn’t give them this but prob lally a pile of Scm used equipment.

Patrick, does the large table ring swivel around so the fence can be directed anywhere so the tilt function can go either direction.

I admire your desire to fix the doors. I'd have that goal but probably would be looking at the doors with damage forever. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah I’m 42 so if I’m 70-80 and I fully hope to be and promise these machines will still be with me unless I fall very ill and yeah I could I probably won’t care or I’ll just have to remake them again lol.

Metal is probably a better idea. What I’m apposed to is them looking like the metal ones on the older machines as then I’m just not being authtic to this machine and for whatever reason that’s important to me.

I'm sure things have improved some in the polymer world in the last 40 years, but 90% of plastics are designed to be cheap and so disposable. Emphasis on 'disposable'. Another 8% are not cheap, but still disposable. Last 2% are REALLY NOT CHEAP and semi-disposable. ....Don't get any on you as my SWAG splatters on the wall.

I've followed your iron restorations and just trying to manage expectations. I'd figure you'll get the same life span out of a new plastic as the old - maybe 30-40 years? If that works for you, then speed on brother!!

[Mark e Kessler]

ABS could be a potential candidate, of course now you need a hotrunner min 20-30k, then a mold idk maybe 30k? Then you need to convince a converter to make one part...

Maybe find a small foundry do a sand casting of it...

I'm sure things have improved some in the polymer world in the last 40 years, but 90% of plastics are designed to be cheap and so disposable. Emphasis on 'disposable'. Another 8% are not cheap, but still disposable. Last 2% are REALLY NOT CHEAP and semi-disposable. ....Don't get any on you as my SWAG splatters on the wall.

I've followed your iron restorations and just trying to manage expectations. I'd figure you'll get the same life span out of a new plastic as the old - maybe 30-40 years? If that works for you, then speed on brother!!

[David Kumm]

Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm I always thought the long grooves where what a planed table looked like and ground table had swirls like a scm table. So are you saying I have

Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm I always thought the long grooves where what a planed table looked like and ground table had swirls like a scm table. So are you saying I have

Martin ( and most other ) shapers had ground tables so the rings were easier to make flush with the table. Flat is more critical when doing freehand work and not important when running a feeder and I would expect you will have the whole thing ground if needed. Are the quill bearings oil bath and is the pump mechanical or electric? I think Martin changed their lube system from the T21 to the T23. Joe or Darcy will know. The real beauty of those old shapers are inside the cabinet. The system to lubricate, the precision large bearings, and the large frame motor and guts to support all of it are impressive. Unlike new shapers, Martin hung the internals off a heavy base rather than relying on the cast iron top. New machines cheat on the base and save money by using the top as an anchor. Then they get a dip in the middle. Dave