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Thread: 1982 Martin T-23

  1. #181
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Central WI
    Posts
    5,487
    Here is the oil Joe sent me for the T21. All I can say is it looks like a pretty thin spindle oil. It might be that you have to modify the rating to get the new pump to match the flow with the old so some experimenting might be needed. DaveDSCN3741.jpg

  2. #182
    Thanks Dave.

    I spied that oil out on joes build thread. I also talked directly to Martin a number of times and they also found it. This velocite is also very thin. I have experimented till my brains blew all over my shop.

    I’m very happy with the flow rate as of now.

    I’m about to get into the final part of this.

    Waiting on some pics to upload.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Here is the oil Joe sent me for the T21. All I can say is it looks like a pretty thin spindle oil. It might be that you have to modify the rating to get the new pump to match the flow with the old so some experimenting might be needed. DaveDSCN3741.jpg
    Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 04-02-2020 at 12:21 AM.

  3. #183
    Ok forget the pictures it’s late.

    So more to come yet this is not quite done. For many it would be as it works but the oil drains into a pan on the floor as apposed to the Rez as it’s fighting gravity.


    The return rate is completely dependent on gravity with my new system. As a result the return line needs to go down hill 100% no rise at all in the line to the Rez or the flow/return rate slows and the quill can overfill.

    My solution is in the mail in the form of another 24vdc pump and that can run dry full time and is capable of sucking fluid from four feet bellow or above. It is also totally adjustable regarding flow rate but via a relay. I have to wire this relay inline or in front of the pump. Actually I don’t need the relay as I just need the pump to suck all the time and prime the return line as to pull the oil back to the Rez at the rate it is delivered. Another $500 at the problem but after this it’s 100% set to and forget it just use the machines like the original design. I refuse any other solution. I don’t do Mickey mouse or jury rigged.

    Other issue I need to address is the air delivery as all I have is a pancake compressor. And for now that’s all I’m gonna have as I’m not dragging a 60-80lb tank into my house with covid. And I don’t do anything half way either. Although I don’t need the capacity of a 60 gallon tank for this it’s what I’ll get. I do want dry dry air so I’ll go 60 gallon and a proper air dryer setup capable of spraying with. I’m doing this so the compressor never cycles creating water. Not that I’ll ever spray in my shop but when I move I’m good to go for that also.

    For now I’ll be gong nuts with a bunch of Festo regulators filters and separators. Yup you guessed it another $800!

    But you know I’m still doing way better than the greased bearing kit even with a new compressor and air dryer. And not to mention a new machine as I almost just did that and would have if not for covid and job insecurity. That’s was $45-90k. All said I’m gonna have about $6700 into this. Add the aigner fences and new powerfeed and I’m jus around $12k. A Tom of money but not nearly 45K

    This machine fully runs at this point and it’s dreamy, like totally utterly dreamy. This was behind a pain in the ass and at the worst time possible but so worth it.

    Oh I ordered some hdpe to make the d[grills for the sides.

    So I still an knee deep i this thing but it works as I’m soon to have it pretty tricked out minus fresh paint.

    Lights, pretty cool. Yeah 9K vroom!

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    Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 04-02-2020 at 12:30 AM.

  4. #184
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Lancaster, Ohio
    Posts
    280
    definitely got to admire your determination on seeing this project thru
    no way would I be able to do it , however really like the finished product
    Ron

  5. #185
    Thanks Ron,

    As for us all I imagine there are a number of things I don’t admire about myself. But my determination is not one of them.

    My personality really is as of such I do t do much if I’m not interested “thank god I have a myriad of interest” or it could be flat all or me a real bum. And anything I am interested to do I generally do 110% and tend to excel regardless of what it is I choose to do.

    But I have to admit this once pushed me to the very very edge of my limits. I can’t tell you how many times I really had to breath deep and continue acting like a well adjusted adult and instead of flipping out look for the next solution all the while being polite and thankful to those helping me.

    But not quite out of the woods but with the problem generally solved I can see now it’s just these challenges are keep me interested and draw me to such projects.

    Oh and if I didn’t mention the machine is beyond explanation sweet. And that’s coming from a guy who a few days ago “knew it could be a sweet machine but was thinking “this particular machine is the biggest pile of crap I have ever acquired.

    And I sold a machine that pretty much functioned perfectly to buy it. It functioned perfectly but you know it was not like this machine is now just a absolute pleasure to use and like driving a BMW M3 vrs a Kia.

    As you can tell by my winded response end take pride in your recognition of my commitment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Selzer View Post
    definitely got to admire your determination on seeing this project thru
    no way would I be able to do it , however really like the finished product
    Ron

  6. #186
    Ok where did I leave off,

    I needed or was waiting on a piston diaphragm pump for the return line.

    It showed up.

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    The pump needed a switch that I had already ordered form McMaster Carr. I figured as soon as I got the pump easy peasy I’m done and this is behind me.

    Wrong!

    When I hooked the switch to the machine via a 24v rectifier stepped down by a transformer then to the pump I got nothing. I did get 24vdc at the inlet to the switch but nothing on the other side. I figured with a voltage meter and it being a switch I should get 24v then nothing then 24v then nothing at the rate I set the switch for and in my case like on off once per second.

    I got nothing, it was as if I had not even worked the pump. I’d come to find out later that the switch required a jumper wire and that these switches don’t have voltage to the outlet side as they can also run AC power and you would plug and jump your AC or DC power in in a very specific configuration depending.

    My pump worked to the first switch not working a dam, IM ABOUT TO GO THROUGH THE ROOF AT THIS POINT.

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    And my 24v dc at the inlet. What gives I’m thinking grrrr...

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    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #187
    So lost and at a complete loss where to go from here I get on the phone to the pump manufacturer and talk to a engineer. I tell him all about my little project and my switch that wonít work. He had no idea why. But he saiz something about the pump having such a low draw .16v that the switch canít sense it and I need a different switch. He mentions nothing of how to wore it or jumping this or that together. He gives me a McMaster part number.

    I order the switch. Mind you he was fully aware this was a 24vdc application only.

    So I get this hook it up and nothing again. Ok Iím gonna drive my dam van straight through my shop at this point and I have pretty much had enough at this point. As much as I love screwing with machines and then the rewards of working with them this one has me on the brink of madness.

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    Notice itís 120 not 24v so all wired up it still wonít sense the pump.

    Ok another McMaster return another day or two wait to sort this out. I thought I was done is this like three weeks ago lol. Itís really testing my patients at this point.

    The new 24vdc switch..

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    Success it works finally. Holly crap I never thought I would see the day at this point. Now to dial in the flow rate, fingers crossed now that I have the pump switched and powered the flow rate of the pump like to do the job Iím gonna ask it to do.

  8. #188
    So I get out of my sparkles clothes and put on my plumbers clothes.

    At first go things are not looking good. The pump just won’t prime the lines. Now mind you this is a micro dosing pump. I’m using like 1/8 iD tube. I try priming the line by mouth and it seems no dice. I let the quill fill with a bit of oil as it has a small shallow depression under the lower bearing where it collects directing it into a small hole and thus the return line.

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    I get it flowing and connect it to the pump and power it up. Nothing again, no dice, pump is pumping but no oil is returning to the Rez. So I bust the plumbing all,down again and double check everything. I remember back a friend helping mentioning that this micro dosing pump suggestes the use of like a 1/16 iD lines.

    So my feed is a line writhing a line. For the most part 3/13 line with a 1/16 line running through it. The inner line is what delivers my oil to the quill and the bearings. The outer line delivers oil that disperses the oil from a drop into a mist.

    Do I decide to hook this tube imma tune stufff up..

    All plumbed and this smaller I’d line seems to be working.

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  9. #189
    So,I leave it running for a few hours while Iím working ďyou know with woodĒ keeping a eye in it out the corner of my eye. All seems great Iím tickled and satisfied finally. I power it down and go eat dinner. I come back row hours later and fire it up and the return line return rate had diminished to like one drip every 40-60 seconds.

    Thatís not gonna work as the system can only hold so much oil before it overflows the little cup under the lower bearing. Once again I wanna put my head in a vise and squeeze my dam brains out of my head. I think it though and decided the little tiny 1/16 iD like mist have clogged with some soot shedding out of the quill. It is a old machine made in 1982 after all.

    So I tear down all the plumbing yet again check all the lines for clogs and a nice tight pressure fit looking for air or oil leaks. I pretty much find nothing. I set it back up and run it again for a hour. Everything is perfect with a return drip ever 3-6 seconds just like it was from the factory in 1982. I shut it off let it sit for a 10 minutes turn it back on all good. So I turn it off let it sit for a hour turn it back on all good. I go to bed and come back the next morning and fire it up and still all good. I check it several ti,is throughout the day as I work and still freaking good.

    Iím a bit suspect s\at this point it will continue to be good. But provided the oil stays clean I donít see any reason why I wouldnít. It had best as the next step is sourcing yet another pump that can handle a larger ID tube as to shed any contaminant. Not so easy a if I could had found one the first go around I would have.

    So this little cluster is three pieces. The first is a soft start in off switch. The second is a regulator/filter. The third is another filter to tend to the excessive water my little mini compressor creates.

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    Air comes in the left and exists out the right and feeds the input pump. This pump also operates off dc power. Without both air and electricity it wont work. It sucks air and oil in the left and spits it out the right and up tot he top of the quill.


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  10. #190
    The bottom line feeds the upper bearing and the bottom returns it to the Rez.

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    The return pump operates only via 24vdc power and does it use air. It’s flow rate is controlled via a 24vdc switch. All this is wired to the machine proper. When I turn the power on to the spindle everything fires up together.

    It’s pretty slick honestly now all done but mental energy and much $$$ spent and me exhausted regarding both. If I take into account just previous to this I figured out pretty much on the own how to wire a phase converter to power my three phase machines and I have been down a very deep rabbit hole for many weeks in way above my head with no choice but figure my way out or succumb to defeat.

    I do t do delete and I really don’t know the meaning of quit. This one came real close to beating me. It has 100% left me thinking this should not be so hard and I bet “a actual smart guy” not me could had done this 123.

    So now running it’s a charm and even better in use but something is loose and making a crappy rattle noise. I can’t have a rattle noise coming from my precious Martin as that’s what I buy these martins as they are so freaking smooth and relatable. So off I go down another Brit hole to find the rattle.

    I find out it’s this little box that indexes they pull belts and sends a signal to four lights in the side of the machine that indicate spindle speed. So I set off again tearing a knee part of the machine apart.

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    The box is just behind the orange kipp lever.

    I need to pull this apart anyway as the cable gland was missing it’s inner rubber. This let dust and potentially oil form the quill just above down into it.

    I ordered a variety pack of cable glads being I got all excited when I figured out the German specific threads. I can’t have a cable gland that can’t snug a wire on one of my machines. You think I’m kidding but I really can’t.

    I had also had another t23 owner missing this piece on his machine request I make him detailed drawing and or tracings of the parts so he can have them replicated. This was a perfect opportunity to kill a couple birds with one stone. Ah I hate that expression as much as I hate the one about pit bulls and dog fights being I’m a pit bull owner and can’t stand people whom don’t like pit bulls. Ok me and my politics. But really I don’t like you if you don’t like spit bull just because it’s a pit bull. Anyway lol I just can’t stop myself.

    The gasket on this was shot so I replaced it with sticker back felt. I have found felt gaskets all over these old machines mostly relating to oil. But being this is what I had I figured it would work. It’s low voltage also 24v dc and honestly I can’t see it being a problem. I’m slightly worried but not worried. I’d have just used rubber if I had had it.

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  11. #191
    I also made a switch. I lost the original in transit. I used a piece of scrap ebony after looking online and not liking anything I could find in square shaft.

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    Then all,that stink about exact reproductions of the louvered covers. Well hereís where I am. The dust collection on the machine is not great and it spits massive mounts of shavings out the back of the machine and thus into the inside of the base. I went so nuts cleaning it I just canít let it get all screwed again in a couple uses.

    So I ordered some hdpe with the intention of copying everything but the louvers and instead routing slots horizontally across them. After much time spent behind a pos router table trying to do this I couldnít get the perfect clean result I expect. Prob a,y good enough for most but not like a cnc machine cut them or they were poured in a moulding so I gave up. Iíll make two like this then when time and finds allow Iíll have a three axis cnc machine cut the louvers in them.

    For now I can work, have been working and the machine is just a dam dream. Worth it all but oh boy I earned this one.

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  12. #192

  13. #193
    Oh I left out one last detail.

    What I thought was a low air need application or solution turns out to be not so low air application. I require 4cfpm @ 90 psi to max out this pump. I have it set slightly bellow that. Maybe like 2.5 cfom @ like 65 psi. This is a constant air requirement if the machine is running.

    As a result my little porter cable pancake compressor runs nearly full time of the machine is on. Iím gonna start a fire.

    So after talking it over with a number of compressor manufactures based on my pumps specs it looks like Iíll need a 2 stage 5hp 60-80 gallon compressor with a auto drain and proper air dryer as you know Iím spraying my bearings with compressed air. If water gets in there it very very bad.

    So you know the $$ marches in as is all this shop related stuff all the time. $2300 for the compressor, $8-900 for the air dryer, another $150-300 for the auto drain. And holly freaking crap when people suggest building a shop on short money I kinda just laugh a little inside and think you will figure out the truth as I have a little at a time over a number of years.

    But man this is not a poor mans venture unless you are not prone to carpal tunnel do it only part time,or just lol, at your machines vrs use them or something like that. Otherwise itís a never ending money pit!

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Central WI
    Posts
    5,487
    Find a Quincy QR 325 and put in a gasket kit and copper seals. the valves can sit in evaporust and be good as new. The QR was maybe the best compressor made and it runs slow and pretty quiet. The larger the tank, the less moisture to capture. I have less than 1K in mine with a very good motor and 100 gal tank. After the problems with the shaper, a QR is a piece of cake to rehab. A day or two at most. Dave

  15. #195
    One of my challenges Dave is yet again amperage or available amperage.

    This compressor is gong to be much like a dust collector for a home workshop. Single phase dust collector three phase phase converter machinery.

    My issue is I don’t have a 50 amp breaker available to run the compressor alongside the shaper and a dust collector. I can handle a 30 amp breaker and I have one already wired adjacent to the the place I can fit the compressor currently dedicated to my bandsaw. I can plug in and unplug the bandsaw as needed but when using the shaper I’ll need the compressor shaper and dust collector running maybe all at once even if only for short times as the compressor should if sized properly “big enough tank” every 20-30 minutes.

    I found one Cambel Housfeld 5hp two stage machine that specs a 30 amp breaker. I was originally thinking the 3.5 hp single stage Quincy unit but I read terrible things about it and then I was told it would not suit my air requirements so it’s out.

    So now I’m faced with another problem and not one I’m gonna resolve just moving and no I’m not upgrading my electrical as it’s the middle of a pandemic and I. Not spending money I don’t need to unless I need to. I do the compressor and the service upgrade and I could be $6k into this maybe $7K. So as committed as I am to my shop “and happy to be so” saying I told you so to the naysayers right now more than ever as I get to work away through this nightmare still eating a pay check even if I am paying a bigger electric bill and dumping my own money into equipment. This isn’t the first time my shop had bailed me out or earned me extra income. Am I even close to a break even point probably not but close. But that’s not all it’s about it’s also about fun.

    I also,suspect I won’t always work for someone as I don’t think I’ll be happy doing so long term. But I’d say maybe another 5-10 years..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Find a Quincy QR 325 and put in a gasket kit and copper seals. the valves can sit in evaporust and be good as new. The QR was maybe the best compressor made and it runs slow and pretty quiet. The larger the tank, the less moisture to capture. I have less than 1K in mine with a very good motor and 100 gal tank. After the problems with the shaper, a QR is a piece of cake to rehab. A day or two at most. Dave

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