Terms of Service - Notice

[Barry O'Mahony]

The AVweb suit illustrates the fact that the owners of fora such as this need to have sufficient liability insurance, and a written policy approved by their attorney as to how the site will be moderated. At least they have to if they have any assests in the U.S.A. 'not a bad idea for individual posters, either. Here, anyone may sue anyone, anytime they want, for anything. If you resolved never to do anything that may make you a target of lawsuits, you have to end up doing a Brian Wilson-thing and spend all day in bed.

[Randy Meijer]

Tod: I haven't even seen your previous post. My comment about "favoritism" was generic and a response to the comment by Aaron or Bryan or both.

I am puzzled, however, by your comment about the liablilty of the board. I looked at the link to the AV case and thought I understood it to say that interactive Internet groups did "NOT" have any liability for postings by third parties. Maybe someone can clear this up for me?? This legal stuff fries my brain....hope some lawyer doesn't sue me for that comment!!!

[Randy Meijer]

Randy.....I think the main reason they don't edit the posts and instead remove it from public viewing is the amount of work involved......take a look at Ken's response on why they don't take the time to notify individuals when they have to move or edit a post......

Ken: I do understand that the mods have a lot on their plate. Never suggested that they try to edit each and every post to make them TOS compliant. But since they do read each post, it can't be much extra work to just "DELETE" the posts that do not conform to the TOS??

[Randy Meijer]

....'not a bad idea for individual posters, either. Here, anyone may sue anyone, anytime they want, for anything....

I've got a hundred dollars in the bank, a 15 year old Nissan truck, a WIN 98 computer and live in a rent house. I do have an almost new JET mini lathe. Sue away.......

[Donnie Raines]

It is my understanding that a lawsuit can only be justly brought if the person in question was partaking in intentional slander. Makeing a mistake about facts is diffrent then flat out calling someone an idiot, degrading______insert item here that is being discussed. Those in the public spot light often carry higher levels of liabilty for obvious reasons. I find it hard to beleive that an individual or a forum could be sued for a harty conversation that happen to be based on incorrect information. Again...I beleive there needs to be malice present for such a cause to be justified.

[Brian Austin]

Again...I beleive there needs to be malice present for such a cause to be justified.

Since malice is unproveable in most respects, it's not necessarily a factor for civil proceedings. Remember, civil lawsuits aren't about 'guilty' or 'innocent' but about who the jury likes the most.

Besides, even the threat of a lawsuit can end up causing a forum to go under. A small, non-profit discussion board doesn't have the resources to go up against big money, regardless of source. Under threat of lawsuit, closing down may be the only option.

RE: the Avweb lawsuit. Some of what you're reading is editorial. Avweb paid a settlement (to a charity) for this one, primarily for their inattention to not only the initial problem but the subsequent refusal to do anything about it when brought to their attention by the plaintiff.

[Randy Meijer]

Donnie: I think you are probably correct; but Barry's point is that rightly or wrongly, you can be sued and even if you are in the right, it still may cost you a bunch to defend yourself.

[Donnie Raines]

Since malice is unproveable in most respects, it's not necessarily a factor for civil proceedings. Remember, civil lawsuits aren't about 'guilty' or 'innocent' but about who the jury likes the most.

Besides, even the threat of a lawsuit can end up causing a forum to go under. A small, non-profit discussion board doesn't have the resources to go up against big money, regardless of source. Under threat of lawsuit, closing down may be the only option.

RE: the Avweb lawsuit. Some of what you're reading is editorial. Avweb paid a settlement (to a charity) for this one, primarily for their inattention to not only the initial problem but the subsequent refusal to do anything about it when brought to their attention by the plaintiff.

I dis-agree that malice is difficult to prove. It is the basis for many of conviction in our court system's. To act with intent is far easier to prove then non pre-meditated issues.

For the record....I agree that these discusssion need not be on a general wood working web site. I participate in other wood forums Off topic section that get very heated at times...but mostly it is guys just being guys.

[Dev Emch]

Wow! That was quite a legal post about Mr. Wolk. But it also opens up a new means of quieting desecenters. So now, a consumer/customer of a tool company may not be happy with his purchase due to quality, poor design and poor manufacture. His purchasing the product in the first place with his hard earned money proves he was unbiased. But his nolonger unbiased position can now be held against him in a court of law. This has huge ramifications for fourms like this where users actually discuss the pros and cons of various woodworking products. All any builder needs to do is threaten legal action against SMC and the decenters are silenced. Now of course this material is neither political nor religious and the forum is not public, therefore, in short, we have no first ammendment rights. But there are a bunch of civil laws that can brought to bear against us. Is this the new avenue that tool sellers are going to use to force horrid quality upon us? After considering much of this information, I know it will put the cabase (sp?) on my of my posts. I will be happier to leave these manufacturers alone and crawl back into my cave and restore the artifacts of Grand Rapaids, MI for my own use.

[Brian Austin]

Wow! That was quite a legal post about Mr. Wolk. But it also opens up a new means of quieting desecenters. So now, a consumer/customer of a tool company may not be happy with his purchase due to quality, poor design and poor manufacture. His purchasing the product in the first place with his hard earned money proves he was unbiased. But his nolonger unbiased position can now be held against him in a court of law. This has huge ramifications for fourms like this where users actually discuss the pros and cons of various woodworking products. All any builder needs to do is threaten legal action against SMC and the decenters are silenced. Now of course this material is neither political nor religious and the forum is not public, therefore, in short, we have no first ammendment rights. But there are a bunch of civil laws that can brought to bear against us. Is this the new avenue that tool sellers are going to use to force horrid quality upon us? After considering much of this information, I know it will put the cabase (sp?) on my of my posts. I will be happier to leave these manufacturers alone and crawl back into my cave and restore the artifacts of Grand Rapaids, MI for my own use.

I think you're jumping to conclusions here, Dev.

Avweb was held liable for the actions of its posters after it was given warning more than once. The posters were well beyond the norms of civil discourse. I've seen the transcripts from some of the discussions (they're archived elsewhere and, with some creative Google keywords, you can find them). It wasn't pretty.

The plaintiff was a lawyer who specialized in aviation matters. He already had the knowledge and experience to take this matter on himself. No legal team required.

Going back to your premise: personal experience and facts to back up your case aren't really grounds for a civil case. Presenting an experience (ie my tablesaw from ABC company fell apart at the trunnion after six months of use) and an opinion based on that experience (ie I don't think ABC company makes a quality product) aren't really impeachable offenses. How SMC chooses to deal with these is up to Aaron, Keith, et al., however. Going after a manufacturer with non-civil language (ie ABC company is a crap company and makes crappy products) is a different story. Saying things about a company with no facts or personal experience to back it up is also a different situation.

Stick with GR stuff if you'd like. I'm from there and worked in the tooling industry for a few years before getting into IT and moving out West.

[Aaron Koehl]

Thanks for all the great comments. I never like to single folks out and, for the many reasons listed above, I will move a thread when it spirals out of control. It's served us well for 3 years, and I think the reasons are pretty transparent why.

As far as the distinction I made about 'deleting' threads versus moving them is that we still have a record of what was discussed for future reference.

I would also mention that I RARELY, if ever, move a thread unless it's been officially reported to me via the Report Bad Post, with a reason entered by the user. I don't read every post on the forum, but I do read most of them. Often I miss heated debates until they are 10-15 posts long. Individual posts are edited and deleted all of the time, so it's not like using a hammer to put in a screw. In other words, when a thread gets moved, it's rarely ever a knee-jerk reaction.

My primary goal is to maintain editorial value on the 'Creek so threads are only moved after much thought.

Finally, though I take it personally when people 'pack up their toys and go home', I will never let a few members leaving get me down. We get as many as 30 new members a day, and while I don't want anyone to feel let out, SawmillCreek obviously can't be 100% pleasing for everyone.

I do the best I can, with what I have, wherever I am.

[Aaron Koehl]

For the record, I like discussions about the merit of one tool over another. However, these posts are often controversial--which by no means is bad. Unfortunately, not everyone can always present a tactful, logical argument-- this is where moderation typically comes in.

The discretion of the moderators is in the terms of service. Any post submitted may or may not be chosen to be published on this forum, and can be removed or edited for content at any time. This is much like a magazine or many other publications, where the editors can choose what and what not to include.

Heated dissent adds no value-- this is nothing new. Arguing a point until it's long dead; that adds no value either. You are technically correct about the first amendment- things would be different if this were a public or government-run information medium.

[John Bailey]

I have agreed with every one of the decisions made by our moderators, concerning editing, in my time at the Creek. There is a difference between being in a debate and being informed. I like the information side, on this forum, and would leave the debate to others. I like a good debate as well as others, but I like to go eye ball to eye ball so I can see what the other guy is up to.

There are two types of listening. One is to listen for debate and the other is listening for understanding. I believe the success of this forum is that it is a "listening for understanding" type place. The Moderators do a fine job and I fully support their decisions. Besides, it's hard to take anything too seriously when you've got this silly Santa's hat on.

Just my thoughts, and now, out to my shop to take a couple pictures of my stereo for a different thread.

John

[Roger Los]

First, thanks for this great forum!

Another forum I am a long-time member of WAS sued by a vendor, and almost folded as a result. From that point forward, no negative comments are allowed about any vendor's product, at all. Instead, it's easy enough to say "If you would like my experiences with this product, contact me by direct email," which is what happens now. That way the onus is completely on the private party and removes the board from the loop completely.

What an odd world we live in, eh?

[Vaughn McMillan]

I've got a hundred dollars in the bank, a 15 year old Nissan truck, a WIN 98 computer and live in a rent house. I do have an almost new JET mini lathe. Sue away.......

I'm pretty certain Randy's font color might be giving me headaches and causing me undue emotional stress here at work. I'm thinkin' lawsuit here.
BTW, does the Jet have variable speed?

- Vaughn