Saw tuning/repair question

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I have a question on saw tuning/repair for which I have not yet been able to find an answer through searching the Creek archives.

I have a problem with my dovetail saw. Every cut I make with it ends up twisted.

I realize a picture would help but I'm away from home right now and can't presently supply such a picture, so I'll try to explain. On any saw cut with this particular saw, I can see my knife line at the edges of the cut on top and on the near side, but the far end of the cut always slopes to the right (away from or crossing the knife line depending on whether the waste side of the cut was left or right of the line). The slope increases with increasing length of cut. For example, I'll get about twice the far-end slope when cutting a 3 inch wide board versus a 1 1/2 inch wide board.

I do not have this problem with my tenon saw; both the near end and far end of the cuts are straight.

I suspect that the plate is twisted, but I'm no expert on saws; could I be mistaken, and how would I best go about fixing the problem?

Thank you in advance.

Best regards,
Michael

[Jim Koepke]

Michael, you say is likely wandering due to more set on one side than the other. If the plate was twisted, you would likely be able to see it by sighting down the saw plate.

One place to look for information on tool maintenance is the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQ archive > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805

It is a repository of information. Unfortunately the moderato, Zahid Naqvi, has encountered the realities of life and no longer updates this section.

There a few other sites with useful information. The library at > www.vintagesaws.com < is very useful if you want to maintain your own saws.

If your other saws are tracking well and it is just one saw giving you this problem, then it is likely the saw.

If it is just a light pull away, some will suggest using a sharpening stone on the side to which it is pulling. For me resetting the teeth has produced better results. If you try a stone, do not use a water stone as the teeth will tear it up. Also go from heel (handle end) toward the toe. Try one run with a stone, then try tracking a line on a piece of scrap.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Have you attempted practice cuts?

With straight (plain) grain a saw will wander as JK mentioned. I follow Joel Moscowitz guide linked below. Almost all of my sawing problems are from holding on too tight.

https://www.core77.com/posts/70642/H...etails-By-Hand

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Michael, you say is likely wandering due to more set on one side than the other. If the plate was twisted, you would likely be able to see it by sighting down the saw plate.

Thanks for the input and advice, Jim.

I can see how uneven set would cause the far end of the cut to wander even if I am forcing it to track well on the near side. I'll try stoning the right hand side and see how that works.

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Have you attempted practice cuts?

With straight (plain) grain a saw will wander as JK mentioned. I follow Joel Moscowitz guide linked below. Almost all of my sawing problems are from holding on too tight.

https://www.core77.com/posts/70642/H...etails-By-Hand

Thanks for your input and the link. I have indeed tried practice cuts, and the near side tracks well to full depth (bottoming out on the spine) while the far side starts to pull to the right. It's not by much, but it's enough that I need to pare to the line for my dovetails to fit well.

Best regards,
Michael

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for your input and the link. I have indeed tried practice cuts, and the near side tracks well to full depth (bottoming out on the spine) while the far side starts to pull to the right. It's not by much, but it's enough that I need to pare to the line for my dovetails to fit well.

Best regards,
Michael

That might be you hold on the saw. Try holding the saw with a light touch. Another way that works for me is to establish a square cut across the top and then work the near side to the bottom of the cut. Then start tillting the saw to follow the kerf on the far side.

This is a problem that tends to plague me at times if it has been a long time between cutting dovetails.

jtk

[Michael Bulatowicz]

That might be you hold on the saw. Try holding the saw with a light touch. Another way that works for me is to establish a square cut across the top and then work the near side to the bottom of the cut. Then start tillting the saw to follow the kerf on the far side.

This is a problem that tends to plague me at times if it has been a long time between cutting dovetails.

jtk

Thanks for the additional input, Jim.

I don't think it's a problem with my hold on the saw; it doesn't happen with my tenon saw, which has the same plate thickness and about 2 inches greater depth. It seems to me that the greater saw plate depth should exacerbate issues with how I hold a saw rather than correcting them. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Guaranteed, I can stand to improve my technique regardless.

What you described sounds very much like the technique I use; I cut square across the top to a depth of ~1/8 inch, then start dropping the heel of the saw to cut the near side against the line all the way to full depth (at which point the far end is only slightly deeper than the initial square across cut), then use the kerf to help guide the saw for the rest of the cut. On a through crosscut, I keep the saw at the same angle as when I hit full depth on the near side. On, say, tenon shoulders I start dropping the toe until I hit the baseline on the far side. Works great with the tenon saw, results in a far-end skew to the right with the dovetail saw.

Thanks again.
Michael

[lowell holmes]

See this string.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....26#post2806126

[Jim Matthews]

Out of curiosity, can you cut straight dovetails with your tenon saw? It might be the "hang angle" is favorable with your larger saw.

[Ron Bontz]

Mike,
I am away from the shop right now, but if after you go through the above advice, you don't have a resolution to the problem, feel free to contact me through my email, for further questions with regard to said problem. Please include a pic. if able. If all else fails I am pretty sure there are a couple of saw repair or makers fairly close to you.
Best of luck. Ron

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Out of curiosity, can you cut straight dovetails with your tenon saw? It might be the "hang angle" is favorable with your larger saw.

Interesting question.

It turns out that I can cut better dovetails with my tenon saw than my dovetail saw. I wouldn’t have guessed that.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

It appears to be more than one problem.

Sighting down the saw, the tooth line curves slightly to the right, but just barely enough for me to see it. Using my Starrett combination square as a straight edge, it seems the whole plate curves right based on light shining between the plate and square. As in, it curves right at the spine and halfway between spine and tooth line, too. It’s hard to say how uniform the curve is; I don’t have any feeler gauges.

When I make a cut with my eyes closed, the cut curves right at the heel and farther right at the toe. Meanwhile, I can saw straight just fine with my son’s gent’s saw, my dozuki saw, and my tenon saw.

Stoning the teeth on the right enough to provide a 1/16 inch flat on the side of each tooth didn’t make a big difference. Thinking back, I don’t remember it tracking this poorly after I last sharpened it, so I should probably go ahead and do so again and re-set the teeth while I’m at it.

I am not sure whether to try bending the spine to try to hold the plate straight; it’s a Veritas molded spine saw.

Thanks again for the advice.

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hi Ron,

Thank you for at least the offer. I’ll send you a PM if I can’t get this straightened out with help from the other members.

Best regards,
Michael

[Warren Mickley]

If you have a saw with teeth that are longer on one side, it will tend to track to that side. However you can counteract this by slight pressure and make it follow the line. The trouble is that if there is appreciable thickness to the timber, it will not follow the line as well on the far side. That could be why you get worse results for thicker stuff. We notice this when resawing: one could be following the line on the near side, but if there is something wrong with the saw it will show up on the far side.

Try doing a light jointing on the teeth and see if that shows a disparity.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hi Warren,

Thanks for the insight. What you describe certainly sounds like what I’m seeing. I hadn’t considered the possibility of the teeth being longer on one side, but that makes sense.

A light jointing is how I planned to start the sharpening process regardless, so I’ll be sure to pay careful attention to how the teeth look immediately afterward.

Best regards,
Michael