Justifying tool purchases for Hobby Work

[Jared Sankovich]

What is your time worth? And why are you building things rather than just buying them?

Answer those two questions and you should easily know why you need or dont need those shiny new tools

[Mark Bolton]

Interesting, I was just thinking that the Domino had been out for a long time, and no competitors. FWIW, I've seen some people do DIY versions.

DIY versions, as always, take zero into account for your time. Loose tenons (domino) are nothing new. The tool makes it fast and mindless with adjustable fit.

One other justification I want to throw out there. I've got an old house, and it has needed a lot of things over the years. When we moved in I had two doors so badly warped that they would not latch, and only stayed closed because of rubbing against the frame. I was quoted a price of ~1K per door, and decided that I was better off spending the money on tools than on buying doors. I was able to outfit an entire shop for less than $2K, and build two doors.

I've since gone over that budget a bit with a couple of things, but it's a reasonable justification to say can I save money building this myself?

And not to me mean, but if you applied $2.50 an hour to your time your doors likely cost $4k per door and youve got a wife who is pissed at you for spending so much time in the shop, children who have not seen their father, and more than likely some doors that are good but may be not so good.

There is a balance to everything. I have a fully equipped commercial shop. I dont build solid wood interior doors because I cant in good faith stand behind them. While you may get out from under $2k for a pair of doors they may be far far far more expensive than that in the long term.

The notion of "well I will have the tools" is by far the most ludicrous justification for a tool purchase even conceived because it leaves off a delusional notion that you can, or will, build a door equivalent to what you will buy. Other than on rare occasions a small hobby shop will never compete with a purchased door and when they do it will take 3X the hours (free in the minds of some, a value in the mind of your spouse and child).

Again, Fully tooled shop, I cant be profitable building doors.

[Mark Bolton]

What is your time worth? And why are you building things rather than just buying them?

Answer those two questions and you should easily know why you need or dont need those shiny new tools

Amen... amen

[Andrew More]

DIY versions, as always, take zero into account for your time. Loose tenons (domino) are nothing new. The tool makes it fast and mindless with adjustable fit.

So do the DIY versions. Considering the "cheap" version of the domino is $1K, it wouldn't be hard to beat it. I'd guess that most builds are in the 4-8 hour range, and require a $100 router. I'll take $100-200 per hour, other people might come to other conclusions, which is fine.

And not to me mean, but if you applied $2.50 an hour to your time your doors likely cost $4k per door and youve got a wife who is pissed at you for spending so much time in the shop, children who have not seen their father, and more than likely some doors that are good but may be not so good.

Not sure the logic here. I think you could make an equal claim to most of the projects made here. Should everybody just abandon hobby woodworking and buy stuff? I can't speak for everybody, but my wife was fine with the time I spent, and I have a healthy relationship with my kids. It took a long time as a result of maintaining these priorities, but I was able to accomplish more than one thing at a time. Generally speaking I was able to do this when they were napping, or asleep at night or other times when they were occupied.

If people are not maintaining a health relationship with their family, it's not a wood working problem.

I agree with you that there's a trade off to be made. In my case I'd rather have the $2K tools than the pro made doors. Also about half the cost was the shipping, which doesn't benefit anybody.

I'm not sure how much time I spent, but it would be a poor comparison because I did not know what I was doing, and likely did not do things in the most efficient manner possible. As a result of doing something, rather than having it done for me, I gained a lot of useful skills along the way. Those skills are pretty valuable to me, and worth the trade off in time, and will continue to be a benefit to me, as will the tools that I have which can be used for multiple projects. I was also able to make a number of improvements in my efficiency, so that the next set of doors I make will be much more efficient.

As for the doors themselves, the first one has a minor flaw I'm not pleased with, but cannot be fixed. The second one was comparable to a professional product. In either case they're a high step up from the original doors, and address my immediate concerns.

Further to truly be able to apply a "My time is worth X dollars" you need to have a type of work that scales, and will be pay by the hour. I also find that most people do not have jobs that scale, and even if they do, they cannot work 80 hour work weeks and be pleasant, productive and well adjusted human beings. So I cannot say my time is worth $0.50, $2.50 or $25 because it's not really possible for me to pick up extra hours and get paid for them. I could work at McDonald I suppose, but I find wood working more enjoyable.

Again, Fully tooled shop, I cant be profitable building doors.

Not to be mean, but this sounds like a personal problem. Since I got two quotes for these doors at ~$500 or so for the door + shipping, it seems to be very possible. It could be that "fully tooled shop" is not as fully tooled as the two shops I contacted for quotes. I suspect they may have a number of dedicated processes and machines, which I would consider a fully tooled shop, but you may consider to be above and beyond.

I think, having done this a couple of times, I could probably produce another door in about 8 hours of work. Figure in $100 for materials, so $400 for labor, and you've got $50 an hour. This seems a reasonable trade-off to me, obviously YMMV.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I suspect, like the track saw, the day the patent expires (patent date was 2004 so 4 years from now)

There's been a whole host of great comments and I'm really not sure there's anything I can add, other that to echo that enjoying the time with kids is something I would keep as a high priority again. FWIW, the tools that the craftsman in Wilmington used weren't cheap when new either. Nor are hand tools today, really.

It also depends on your goals. I'm not typically buying tools simply to reduce labor costs these days, unless it's a task I really just hate doing. This is the reason I have zero interest in said Domino, I like making mortise and tenon joints too much. With the last purchases, they've either been 'good deals' on items I've been wanting for some time or a project has dictated a need.

Yeah, I think it's a bit over-rated, I have a Domino 500 but rarely use it; preferring to cut traditional mortise and tenons 99% of the time. I use it for panel glue-ups for alignment, for quick jigs or for the occasional joinery task on smaller items where precision or high-strength isn't as critical and/or when I really want to save some time on a project that I'm not too passionate about. Not sure I would get rid of it but not sure if I would buy another if it disappeared either.

As for the whole justification thing. I agree with many of the posts - it's completely unique to the individual, their values and situation. There is no right or wrong answer.

Cheers, Dom

[Matt Day]

You’re life is going to change significantly soon. You’ll not only have a baby but you’ll (hopefully) be saving money for the kid’s future, which might mean less disposable income. And let me tell you, from a dad of a 5 & 7 year old, that you’ll have about 4 years before that kid doesn’t need an adults full attention all the time. That likely means less shop time.

Do you and your wife have the financial means to be dropping Festool money on tools, save for college, and pay for diapers (and all the other stuff)? Because if you’re like me you won’t want to push around an umbrella stroller, but instead she’ll out $500 for a Bob stroller. That’s half that track saw right there.

And if your wife is anything like mine, she’s not going to buy the “it’ll make me more efficient” line.

[Randy Heinemann]

No question .... The Domino is one of the most useful and innovative tools on the market. It is the most flexible and easily set up tool I own. I have done some things I might not have attempted otherwise. However when my kids were young, I probably would not have been able to buy one (if they had been available then). Just too expensive for how much I would have had time to use it. Even now, and my kids are grown and out, it sometimes seems like too much for how much I use it. Still I wouldn’t give it up.

I really like the idea of sharing tools with a friend if the 2 of you can work out a schedule and both of you take care of tools well. Otherwise it will not turn out well. Buying a Domino used in mint condition won’t save you much and it’s a risk unless you can see it and try it out first. The fence could be bent. Here could be other unseen damage. If it’s out of warranty you tee just out of luck.

[Mel Fulks]

Easy! You contact Sotheby's and tell them that if they will build and equip a shop for you...you will make them the sole
vendor of your work ,and they can keep 50 percent.
That's the way many 'get rich quick' books read in the fifties.

[Mike Rambour]

regarding the guys that say once you have a baby you wont have shop time for 5-15 years, I say B.S. to that. When my daughter was born, I had less shop time but only for maybe a year. After that my daughter had ear muffs to wear while my wife and I were in the shop. My daughter at around age 6 got her very own saw (Delta Scrollsaw) to use with supervision and a small sander and by age 10 had her own set of chisels and with close supervision was allowed to use other tools (not the shaper she is now 30 and I am still uncomfortable when she uses the shaper). But then again I married well, my wife is in the shop with me most of the time i am there. One my proudest "daddy" moments was when my daughter was 17 and I came home from work and she had her car half apart, rear seal was leaking and she was replacing the seal and clutch. She probably could have done it all on her own but needed the car next morning for school, so I helped. Cars are my primary hobby, so I do have a lift which makes things super easy.

As to justifying the tools, I used straight edges to guide the saw, a home made tenoning jig for the table saw and resisted the Festool urge for years. I had to build a highchair/table combo for my daughter and I thought a Domino would really make it go quicker, I finally broke down and bought one...a week later I bought the track saw and several tracks, a month later I bought the LR32 for making shelf holes, within 2 months I had a whole bunch of Festool tools. The time savings were incredible and so much easier to get accurate work than my home made jigs, etc.

[David Kumm]

Only the Op has the info to determine whether he can afford it. Dave

[Mike Cutler]

I look at object, or a project, from a few angles to determine if I want to do it myself.
Can I find someone to build what I want, exactly the way I want it, without a constant argument?
How much is the tool if I buy it?
How much is the material to build it times three? You'll mess it up the first time and waste material, learn from your mistakes ,and build it correctly the second.
If this, plus what time you're willing to put into it are less than buying it, go for it.
Twenty year ago I was renovating a bathroom, and didn't want to get bogged down with plumbing, even though I can do it. I got quotes from plumbers for $1000.00 per fixture, roughed, 3 fixtures total. I already had the actual finished faucets, valves and escutcheon plates.
I figured it would take a plumber less than a day, and I wouldn't have water in the house, as all of the studs and joists were open, and it would probably take me, two, maybe three days. I did it myself and saved $2500.
You have to look at everything.

If you want to build something for your own personal satisfaction, build it.

[jeff norris 2011]

Form me a few things helps me decide if I should buy a tool:

1. safety
2. enjoyment

Making projects go purely faster really does not play into it. I am in the shop as a hobby to kill time. So if I am doing something fun for longer, I don't care. Of course there are a few exceptions, if I can shorten the time spent doing things I don't like but need to be done, I will invest in a faster better solution. For example my only festoon is a Rotex. I don't like sanding, but this tool does actually help me enjoy it as it is so efficient and clean.

Would I buy a domino? Never. I enjoy joinery. So I would rather spend a bit more time make a nice mortice and tenon joint.

[Jim Becker]

Only the Op has the info to determine whether he can afford it. Dave

That's correct. He was asking for guidance and our thoughts around how to justify...but yes, it's ultimately his decision.

[Stan Calow]

I do think its a different process for a hobbyist than looking at how much your efficiency and production time will improve. I'd like to upgrade a few things, but then I think about how many projects in a given amount of time I will actually do. Then judge whether investing in a better tool will be worth it. For example, I haven't used my lathe once in the last four months. My planer has been running, maybe a couple of minutes during that time. So its not worth it to me as I dont see my production changing. I bought a new table saw last year, bit chose a contractor saw rather than a high dollar cabinet saw or re-built Unisaw, because I wont use it enough to justify the cost. Domino sounds good, but I may churn out only one or two projects this year needing them. So if you look at cost of a tool over time, or per project, I cant justify a lot of new tools.

[Bird Cupps]

I own a lot of tools. I don't justify buying them very much, but then I don't have kids. I know parenting is different now than when I grew up, but I spent lots of time working with my dad on all his projects. (And I'm a girl, so that tells you that not all parents got into the gender stereotypes.) Being with him created so much of my outlook on life, so I hope your kids get that opportunity, too.

Today, if I have a tool I can spare, I share it with friends all the time. If it comes back a bit worn, that's okay. Those are my friends, and they mean more than any tool. My tile saw goes all over the place--some people just buy a blade and then use the saw whenever. My scaffolding also comes and goes. I'm glad to see these things get used.