Thinking about a slider

[Bryan Hunt]

So, I'm thinking about upgrading to a slider. I love my SawStop, but breaking down 4x8 and 5x5 sheets is a PITA. I have a Festool track saw and that helps, but I'm looking for a better way to do things. Right now, I'm taking a serious look at the Minimax SC 4e. I'll probably take a look at Felder as well. I think the K500 is roughly equivalent to the SC 4e.

Some of the features I know I want include:

• 8.5' stroke
• Single phase main motor
• Scoring blade

Now some questions:

1. For saws with a separate motor for the scoring blade, is that a separate electrical connection, or does the saw split the incoming connection between the two motors.
2. I see the MiniMax has an option of running the scoring blade off of the main motor. Is there any reason for going with this option?
3. In general, do sliders have leveling feet? The floor in my shop is sloped for a drain right were the saw would sit (not my design). I'm thinking metal plates to level it if there aren't built-in leveling feet.
4. How do you get the thing off of the pallet? Can you put forks under the machine itself? Lucky me, my neighbor has a forklift
5. If you are dimensioning lumber, how do you rip the width after jointing / planing? Do you use the fence to the right of the blade like you would with a cabinet saw?
6. I've seen discussions of not using the scoring blade when cutting non-sheet lumber. This seems to make sense if you are ripping. Wouldn't you want to use it for crosscut?

Do any of y'all have the SC 4e? If so, how much space in width do I need for the saw? I'm not too worried about length since my shop is 30' across in that direction. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

[Kevin Jenness]

1. Typically there is one connection to external power

2. Less cost to manufacture. Some manufacturers offer single phase units with a scorer driven by the main arbor and a separate motor with three phase models. Slave scorer means it is running all the time, more wear on the components.

3. Depends. Mine doesn't, but shims are no big deal.

4. Depends. If you have a stout beam above and a comealong you can lift the saw off the pallet. If no skyhook, you may have to cut the pallet apart to get a pallet jack or rollers under it. A big pry bar or Johnson bar comes in handy. You probably can lift it with a forklift from below depending on the design, otherwise pick it with slings from above.

5. I typically use the rip fence. Opinions vary.

6> Depends on the blade and material. A sharp high atb blade can get good results in most materials. Successful scoring requires keeping the sheet flat on the table which can be a challenge. Clamps help.

[Erik Loza]

I'll probably take a look at Felder as well

Hi Bryan. I’m located in Austin, too. If you want to see any K500’s in person, I have a number of customers in the area.

Erik

[Mark Hockenberg]

Bryan - I'm also looking into the upgrade to a slider. From what I've read, if you want a stroke to handle 8' sheets, you want more than an 8-1/2' slider. It seems that most owners prefer 9-10 for this.

[Brian W Evans]

Bryan,

I have a MM SC4E. To get some of your questions out of the way:

My scoring blade runs off the main motor - possibly because I have a single phase machine, as mentioned above. This is not a problem as the scoring blade is independently adjustable and sits below the table when not in use.

I'm not in a position to see if there is an option to add leveling feet (I think I would have to lift the saw to find out), but I know that some MM machines come with threaded holes for adding levelers. I have a sloped garage and used plywood to shim my saw into being level. This takes a while and requires the ability to lift the saw up and down. Definitely do this before attaching the extra tables or rip fence.

The saw is designed to be lifted with a pallet jack or, I suppose, a forklift. I got mine off of the pallet by myself with a pallet jack and ramps. It took a while, but it's possible.

I generally use the rip fence instead of parallel ripping but I usually use a fritz and franz jig with the fence pulled back. I like this much better than a push stick.

To be honest, I use my track saw to break down sheet goods whenever possible and cut to final dimensions on the table saw. Even with the slider and outrigger, I don't like trying to maneuver full sheets. I would also recommend a 10 foot slider if you plan to cut full sheets. 5x5 is no problem on the SC4E.

I have never tried using the scoring blade with anything other than sheet goods, so I can't say if that is worthwhile or not.

How much space you need, width-wise, depends on whether or not you're using the outrigger and whether or not you've added the extra table to the right of the blade. I would check the Minimax catalog for dimensions. Mine (about 3 years old) requires a minimum of 137" with everything on. This does not include my Grizzly overarm dust collector or any clearance on either side of the saw. I would feel comfortable with 160", unless you don't care about walking past the machine. The outrigger takes up about 65" of the width, and is easily removed.

I recommend you check out the videos on buying a slider by Extreme Woodworker on YouTube. You'll learn a lot about how to use a slider. Also check out Sam Blasco on YouTube. He works for Minimax and has some videos about his slider.

[Kevin Jenness]

As far as the nominal length of the saw goes, the devil's in the details. My Paoloni 260 has a carriage about 102" long, which allows for a clamp at the forward end and a 97" sheet butted against the crosscut fence lands jus at the back end of the table. The stroke is about 117", which allows for clearing the scoring saw at the beginning of the cut and the main blade at the end of the cut. This would probably be considered an "8.5' slider" based on the length of the table, but with any shorter stroke would be less than ideal for processing 8' sheets.

[Jim Becker]

You actually live in a great area to check out both SCM/MiniMax and Felder, given that Erik (Felder) is right there and Sam (SCM/Minimax) is also nearby.

For space reference, my machine has an 8'6" wagon and "end to end" requires 19'. (MiniMax S315WS) While there will be some slight differences between different machines and manufacturers, that should be helpful to you. Most usually have specifications available. One thing I really appreciate about my machine is that it uses "standard" tooling which meant I could continue using the same blades I had been using with the cabinet saw previously. I've only recently moved to 12" blades as my older tooling reached the point that I was less inclined to sharpen more.

[Bryan Hunt]

Thanks everyone for the info. I watched a bunch of the Extreme Woodworker videos and learned a lot.

Jim, do you have Sam's contact info?

Erik, I sent you email.

[Mark e Kessler]

First number is his shop, then cell and main.
sam.blasco@scmgroup.com
512-931-1962 shop)
512-796-3036 (mobile)
866-216-2166 (main office/parts/tech services)
www.minimax-usa.com

Thanks everyone for the info. I watched a bunch of the Extreme Woodworker videos and learned a lot.

Jim, do you have Sam's contact info?

Erik, I sent you email.

[Dan Coker]

The Felder and MiniMax units are very expensive. Unless you are doing production work I would consider looking at the Grizzly sliders. They have some compact models that may fit your space better. I think you said something about having a 30ft wide shop? I would venture to say that unless you have like zero other machines that would not be optimal for a slider. I have used one of the compact Grizzly models and they are nice. Not to the level of Felder but they are an excellent value and even though they are smaller you still have the same capacity as the larger models if you just want 8.5ft or capacity.

If it were me, I would also consider the 120” capacity models. Those open up the possibility to edge jointing solid hardwoods and cross cutting 10ft sheet goods among other great uses. Another shop in my area has the big $12,000 Grizzly slider which is their largest slider model and I use used it a few times and was highly impressed! It seemed just as good as the Altendorphs(sp?) that I have used. Just throwing that out there.

[Patrick Walsh]

Key to what you said and any response should be “I’m sick of breaking down 4x8 and 5x5 sheet stock and want a easier way”...

With that said for intermittent use you don’t need the best. But heck if his the case you don’t “NEED” a slider to break down sheet stock you want one.

But if you want it to be easy and you want a slider I personally don’t consider Minimax or Felders entry level machines expensive compared to grizzly. I also don’t consider minimax not the other “wink wink” to be junk but I do consider grizzly to be as much. Sorry if I hurt feelings on that one but it’s my oppinion.

This reminds me of the other thread titled something like “do we ever say no”...

In this case it sounds like you want a slider. Once you have one you will find you use it for so many tasks you may never have considered. And if your not a wimp you will even rip on it and your table saw will see almost zero use ever again except for dedicated setups. I plan to keep mine for a dado setup and put a powerfeeder on it for milling up piles of lumber. Not the average hobby use but the dado is.

So I say if you want a slider get a slider. If your happy with and have experience with hobby level tools look at the stuff below Minimax. But if not don’t waste your time or you will be disappointed. Pretty sure a entry level Minimax is similar cost to a grizzly.

Still I’d never buy anything entry level as I would just be disappointed. But that’s me you may differ.

[Mark e Kessler]

My shop space is 23’ x 24’ and have a 9’ slide, 16” jointer, edge sander, bandsaw, a pretty large storage rack that can store full size sheets of ply and more than any hobby really needs and the space works well. Is it optimal no, my 10k workshop was but I wouldn’t want a shorter slider than 9’ and wouldn’t want to live with only a TS.

But it does depend on what you are doing with the slider, i use maybe 5-10 sheets a year if I was building cabinets exclusively it might get kinda tight but could be done. And there is no way a grizzly is anywhere near the build quality of an Altendorf F45, maybe equal to their Chinese built but doubt it, if they are someone let me know and I will dump my Felder and buy the Griz that is equal to the F45.

The Felder and MiniMax units are very expensive. Unless you are doing production work I would consider looking at the Grizzly sliders. They have some compact models that may fit your space better. I think you said something about having a 30ft wide shop? I would venture to say that unless you have like zero other machines that would not be optimal for a slider. I have used one of the compact Grizzly models and they are nice. Not to the level of Felder but they are an excellent value and even though they are smaller you still have the same capacity as the larger models if you just want 8.5ft or capacity

If it were me, I would also consider the 120” capacity models. Those open up the possibility to edge jointing solid hardwoods and cross cutting 10ft sheet goods among other great uses. Another shop in my area has the big $12,000 Grizzly slider which is their largest slider model and I use used it a few times and was highly impressed! It seemed just as good as the Altendorphs(sp?) that I have used. Just throwing that out there.

[Erik Loza]

So, I’m in cabinet shops several days per week. From mom-&-pop outfits to huge plants. Never made any formal statistics about it but as far as “what types of saws” or “what types of sliders” folks use, here are some observations:

-Most smaller shops are getting it done on regular cabinet saws. These would be in the 1-2 kitchen per month category and there are lots of these around.
-Some are aware of sliders but don’t know much about them/never used one/“one of those European machines”. This is in large part because lack of exposure or local dealerships, which has always been a struggle in the Euro machinery market. That being said, I do talk to a number of younger shop owners who seem more savvy, have one on the wish list for when their business grows, etc.
-Some bigger shops have an older aircraft carrier of a slider (pic for example), a relic from the days before flatbed CNC’s. Those machines sit largely idle, from what I can see. They are used infrequently: Minimal resale value but not worth getting rid of.
-Speaking only for my shops here in Central Texas, there are more small Felder (or Hammer) machines in these 1-2 person shops than big ones.
-Someone mentioned European-built sliders being pricey. Are we talking about trying to talk someone who can only afford a jobsite saw into a slider (which I won’t do) or are we talking about trying to explain to someone why they should go with one brand of Euro slider over another? In my experience, if the customer is really looking apples-to-apples, pricing among brands tends to be very close. Just my 2-cents,

Erik

[Mark e Kessler]

Forgot to add, when I need to pull a car in to do maintenance like brakes etc it takes me about 10 min to move the saw to the other side so I can get the car in, see pic (sideway for fun)
cAttachment 425025

My shop space is 23’ x 24’ and have a 9’ slide, 16” jointer, edge sander, bandsaw, a pretty large storage rack that can store full size sheets of ply and more than any hobby really needs and the space works well. Is it optimal no, my 10k workshop was but I wouldn’t want a shorter slider than 9’ and wouldn’t want to live with only a TS.

But it does depend on what you are doing with the slider, i use maybe 5-10 sheets a year if I was building cabinets exclusively it might get kinda tight but could be done. And there is no way a grizzly is anywhere near the build quality of an Altendorf F45, maybe equal to their Chinese built but doubt it, if they are someone let me know and I will dump my Felder and buy the Griz that is equal to the F45.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm,

My experience here in the northeast is first no 1-2 man shop is pushing out 1-2 kitchens a month. More like 1 kitchen every two months. But most shops I have had exposure to are not doing box cabinets but larger higher end projects for multi million dollar custom homes and or renovations. I’m taking $40k-120 type jobs.

Yes huge variable there. The $40k being 15lf of lowers and maybe 10 LF of uppers and maybe a small very simple island say everything shaker inset paint grade. The $120 would obviously be like three times that amount of cabinetry.

I have seen some shops building on regular tablesaw. For instance I have a uncle whom has been in business over 25myears eight employees building exhibits for trade shows and they use two cabinets saws. A couple miter saws, a bunch of hand held routers, a pin router and a huge old Oliver bandsaw.

But from what I have seen custom cabinet builders are using either a old Altendorf/Martin or a Minimax/scm slider. Small shops that is.

It would be hell in my honest opinion to build cabinets I’m talking kitchens baths vanities libraries mud rooms without a slider baring you don’t have a cnc. A cnc and I can see the slider becoming a assembly table per eriks suggestion in large shops with a cnc machine of not multiples.

Right now I’m in a shop building pipe organs. We only have a cabinet saw and no outfeed table to boot. Not the biggest deal as we use minimal sheet stock. Still annoying having been used to working with a slider for a myriad of tasks. The first time I have to square a piece of sheet stock I know I’m gonna get very bitchy having to do it the old fashioned way.

Crap a week or two before I<left my last gig making cabs our slider was out of commission. As a result we were forced to use a large sled on the ts and a track saws. Man that got old really freaking quick. Productivity came to a screeching halt.

Also I’ll add I’m not trying to be contrary or controversial or start a argument. The above is simply my experience. The reality is I’m sure Eric is in many more shops than I ever will be.

But again I’ll add it sounded like the OP would like a slider so I felt no need to talk him out of one. Life when at all possible should be enjoyed right.

So, I’m in cabinet shops several days per week. From mom-&-pop outfits to huge plants. Never made any formal statistics about it but as far as “what types of saws” or “what types of sliders” folks use, here are some observations:

-Most smaller shops are getting it done on regular cabinet saws. These would be in the 1-2 kitchen per month category and there are lots of these around.
-Some are aware of sliders but don’t know much about them/never used one/“one of those European machines”. This is in large part because lack of exposure or local dealerships, which has always been a struggle in the Euro machinery market. That being said, I do talk to a number of younger shop owners who seem more savvy, have one on the wish list for when their business grows, etc.
-Some bigger shops have an older aircraft carrier of a slider (pic for example), a relic from the days before flatbed CNC’s. Those machines sit largely idle, from what I can see. They are used infrequently: Minimal resale value but not worth getting rid of.
-Speaking only for my shops here in Central Texas, there are more small Felder (or Hammer) machines in these 1-2 person shops than big ones.
-Someone mentioned European-built sliders being pricey. Are we talking about trying to talk someone who can only afford a jobsite saw into a slider (which I won’t do) or are we talking about trying to explain to someone why they should go with one brand of Euro slider over another? In my experience, if the customer is really looking apples-to-apples, pricing among brands tends to be very close. Just my 2-cents,

Erik