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Thread: New Chisel Prep

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Chang View Post
    A few months ago when I was at my local Woodcraft, I mentioned what a pain it was to flatten the backs of some new chisels. The hand tool expert there said that they do it as a service for a very reasonable price, but I declined because I didn't want to make him do the tedious work. He also said that they were soon going to get a diamond wheel for their Tormek, which has a flat side that would make very quick work of the back prep. If I had new chisels that needed a lot of work, I'd definitely consider bringing them in.
    Even with a diamond wheel, wouldn't the Tormek tend to belly the back, because the ends are being cut faster than the middle (different circumferential speeds, by nature.) I suppose it depends on how you hold it, but this doesn't sound optimal.
    Last edited by Doug Dawson; 01-22-2020 at 12:55 PM.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Dawson View Post
    Even with a diamond wheel, wouldn't the Tormek tend to belly the back, because the ends are being cut faster than the middle (different circumferential speeds, by nature.)
    I bought a Tormek diamond wheel and the jig to use the side of the wheel thinking it might work to flatten the backs of cutters. Two problems, best I can tell the jig is designed to do a flat bevel and the wheel leaves a very rough surface. Even if you could set it to do the back the surface is so rough as to not be usable. I can't remember what grit wheel I have and I expect there are finer available but from my first tries it is not the answer. Of course someone willing to play with the jig more might figure out how to make it work with a finer grit wheel.

    ken

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    I bought a Tormek diamond wheel and the jig to use the side of the wheel thinking it might work to flatten the backs of cutters. Two problems, best I can tell the jig is designed to do a flat bevel and the wheel leaves a very rough surface. Even if you could set it to do the back the surface is so rough as to not be usable. I can't remember what grit wheel I have and I expect there are finer available but from my first tries it is not the answer. Of course someone willing to play with the jig more might figure out how to make it work with a finer grit wheel.

    ken

    I forgot about that jig.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Carey View Post
    An old compass plane, a 42 buck Caliastro #4, and a Worksharp 3000:
    Attachment 424269 Attachment 424270 Attachment 424271

    When you reach a point where the tool is sharp enough to do the job well, what do you gain by continuing to sharpen? And I'm not being a smart ass, just curious what benefits are reaped by trying to sharpen something past the point where it readily accomplishes the task at hand.
    I don't buy into "sharpen enough for a task". I sharpen everything to the same level, which is 13000 grit waterstone, and then finish with green compound on hardwood to ensure the wire is gone. It does not take longer to hone to higher grits - most of the time is spent on the lower grits. The higher you go, the less work there is.

    The thing is, when you work with hard woods, a dull chisel with not cut and simply skate across the surface. Or it will not penetrate deeply when you chop. When you use duller edges, it not only becomes dangerous, but you are more likely to make mistakes and produce poorer work.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    I don't buy into "sharpen enough for a task". I sharpen everything to the same level, which is 13000 grit waterstone, and then finish with green compound on hardwood to ensure the wire is gone. It does not take longer to hone to higher grits - most of the time is spent on the lower grits. The higher you go, the less work there is.

    The thing is, when you work with hard woods, a dull chisel with not cut and simply skate across the surface. Or it will not penetrate deeply when you chop. When you use duller edges, it not only becomes dangerous, but you are more likely to make mistakes and produce poorer work.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Derek,

    I approach it from a slightly more "in the weeds" perspective. A sharp cutter, one where the two surfaces meet at an acute angle, will cut the same at first contact with wood no matter what the final grit. The difference is in how long it will stay sharp enough to cut and there are many factors at play including the final grit used but also the shape of the scratches and if they are ordered or random. The bottom line is, if you want a long lasting edge you do just what you do and take edge to the optimum smoothness.

    ken

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Carey View Post
    [edited]
    When you reach a point where the tool is sharp enough to do the job well, what do you gain by continuing to sharpen? And I'm not being a smart ass, just curious what benefits are reaped by trying to sharpen something past the point where it readily accomplishes the task at hand.
    As stated by Derek and Ken, the quality of work, safety and duration of the edge come into play.

    With something like a scrub plane the sharpness may not matter as much, but a sharp blade is easier to push than one with an almost sharp blade.

    In a smoother, a sharp as is possible blade will leave a much better surface than one that is 'sharp enough' to make shavings.

    Nicked Blade.jpg

    The blade in this plane was very sharp with a nick or a dull spot that left a raised line on the work. Other than the raised line, the surface was smooth like glass.

    With a jointer or a jack plane a fully sharpened blade may make the difference between following up with a smoother and not needing the attention of a smoother.

    On a chisel or in a spokeshave the sharper blade is easier to control.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  7. #37
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    I'm afraid the point about shiny not being sharp can be misleading to some that don't quite get the point. A really sharp cutting edge can't reflect because it is so narrow that it would appear to have no width, and in turn, couldn't show a reflection. Whether or not the bevel, and back is reflective has little effect, one way, or the other, on whether the edge is sharp. If you hone to sub-micron level, whether on stones, or diamonds, the bevel, and back can be Very shiny, while a bevel sharpened with a JNAT may not be shiny, but can be equally as sharp.

    Bill Carey, If you send me an iron, or chisel, I'll sharpen it as sharp as I can get it, and send it back to you. Then you can decide, in use, whether it's worth the extra 30 seconds of sharpening time, or not. I will do it my regular way, and not test it for sharpness, but send it right back to you. Then your comments would be appreciated, and we can learn from it, one way, or the other. When I'm in the middle of a planing project, which can involve all the siding on a house, my sharpening for the iron when it needs honing, starts at 6k, and is usually only done after lunch break, or first thing in the morning. Others stop there, or even earlier, but that's my typical starting point when I feel like it could stand a little help.

    To repeat, in contrast to Derek's insult, I don't test for sharpness. There is a video on here somewhere that shows me taking a chisel that had been used for scraping paint off of bricks, to being really sharp, in a few minutes with stones alone, including talking, fumbling with the camera, and showing how I flatten stones. At the end of the video, realizing that I should actually show that it was sharp, I shaved a large patch of hair off my arm. That being one of the first videos I did, I only thought about, while doing it, that most do test the edge right before I turned the camera off, and that I should show it. You could notice that I went from one stone to the next with no testing, or hesitation. As expected on a sharpening thread, there were rude, chest thumping comments in that thread. I know I need to make a better one with my sharpening sink. That one was set up in the basement kitchen sink of a museum house I was working on, which probably looked pretty confusing.

    I'll try to make a better video this Spring, and post it. Busy with other stuff than woodworking for a while now.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 01-22-2020 at 3:56 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    I don't buy into "sharpen enough for a task". I sharpen everything to the same level, which is 13000 grit waterstone, and then finish with green compound on hardwood to ensure the wire is gone. It does not take longer to hone to higher grits - most of the time is spent on the lower grits. The higher you go, the less work there is.

    The thing is, when you work with hard woods, a dull chisel with not cut and simply skate across the surface. Or it will not penetrate deeply when you chop. When you use duller edges, it not only becomes dangerous, but you are more likely to make mistakes and produce poorer work.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    was answering your question - but perhaps it was rhetorical - about the WS3000. I take my sharpening to 8000 on a diamond plate and then green compound. But thanks for the tip about dull chisels.
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    I'm afraid the point about shiny not being sharp can be misleading to some that don't quite get the point. A really sharp cutting edge can't reflect because it is so narrow that it would appear to have no width, and in turn, couldn't show a reflection. Whether or not the bevel, and back is reflective has little effect, one way, or the other, on whether the edge is sharp. If you hone to sub-micron level, whether on stones, or diamonds, the bevel, and back can be Very shiny, while a bevel sharpened with a JNAT may not be shiny, but can be equally as sharp.

    Bill Carey, If you send me an iron, or chisel, I'll sharpen it as sharp as I can get it, and send it back to you. Then you can decide, in use, whether it's worth the extra 30 seconds of sharpening time, or not. I will do it my regular way, and not test it for sharpness, but send it right back to you. Then your comments would be appreciated, and we can learn from it, one way, or the other. When I'm in the middle of a planing project, which can involve all the siding on a house, my sharpening for the iron when it needs honing, starts at 6k, and is usually only done after lunch break, or first thing in the morning. Others stop there, or even earlier, but that's my typical starting point when I feel like it could stand a little help.

    To repeat, in contrast to Derek's insult, I don't test for sharpness. There is a video on here somewhere that shows me taking a chisel that had been used for scraping paint off of bricks, to being really sharp, in a few minutes with stones alone, including talking, fumbling with the camera, and showing how I flatten stones. At the end of the video, realizing that I should actually show that it was sharp, I shaved a large patch of hair off my arm. That being one of the first videos I did, I only thought about, while doing it, that most do test the edge right before I turned the camera off, and that I should show it. You could notice that I went from one stone to the next with no testing, or hesitation. As expected on a sharpening thread, there were rude, chest thumping comments in that thread. I know I need to make a better one with my sharpening sink. That one was set up in the basement kitchen sink of a museum house I was working on, which probably looked pretty confusing.

    I'll try to make a better video this Spring, and post it. Busy with other stuff than woodworking for a while now.

    Thanks Tom - perhaps I'll learn what lies beyond what I normally sharpen to, and answer the original question I asked. PM when you get a chance with your address and I'll send you an iron. Much appreciated.
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  10. #40
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    PM responded to with address. email HistoricHousePreservation@gmail.com

    I think it will be better than just talking about it.

  11. #41
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    To repeat, in contrast to Derek's insult, I don't test for sharpness.
    Tom, I really did not aim my comment at you, or anyone. My apology if you thought I did.

    There appear to be two schools of thought: one side that says sharpen just enough for a task, and the other that says sharpen all you can. The first group has proponents such as Paul Sellers, who once made a video of sharpening his plane iron to 1000 grit, and calling it good because he could make shavings. He was working. straight grained pine. I do not recall his mentioning the quality of the finish. I belong to the second group, for the reasons I noted in my earlier reply, and especially because a duller edge will not work well on hard woods.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Derek,

    I was afraid of that .

    I tried a Worksharp several years ago to mixed results and gave it away to a friend along with a bunch of disks and all the accessories. Ir basically came down to something that works for the person that does not know how to sharpen well and is willing to limit their tools to ones that work with the machine. It has its place but not in my shop. I had hopes it would prep the backs of cutters but was way too easy to screw one up.

    Waiting for my thumb to heal up enough to go back to chisel prep,

    ken
    Sharing my experience with worksharp and what works so far for me.

    Back flattening:

    I use sandpaper on granite. 80 grit to 1000 grit based on how much material needs to be removed (starting point is 400). Then I switch to water stones.

    Bevel:

    < 2": I use worksharp up to 3k disk. Then I hand sharpen on 5k and 12k shapton. Maybe a minute or two on each, followed by green compound. Worksharp excels at establishing or changing the bevel angle.

    > 2": I use a honing guide. I start with coarse sandpaper on granite and go up to 1000 grit paper, followed by DMT extra fine. If I have some higher grit paper at hand then I use it and skip DMT. Then I hand sharpen using water stones and green compound. One day I will make a platform for worksharp and will probably stop using sandpaper on granite for establishing bevel.

    Problem with worksharp (for me):

    Chisel port came with 400 grit paper. It used to scratch the polished/flattened back of chisels. So, switched it to 3k sandpaper (and never changed it). I remove burr on 5k/12k stones.

    Regular use:

    After initial sharpening, I touch up on 12k stone and sometimes on 5k. The more I delay sharpening the more effort and time it takes to sharpen. Now a days on slightest hint of dullness I take a few swipes on green compound or 12k stone. In case of nicks, I am back to sandpaper or Worksharp.


    To me sharp is when I can vertically slice copier paper with light push. I have tried shaving arm hairs and its sharp enough to do so at this point. I find shaving test a little scary so I avoid it.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    ..... Bill Carey, If you send me an iron, or chisel, I'll sharpen it as sharp as I can get it, and send it back to you. Then you can decide, in use, whether it's worth the extra 30 seconds of sharpening time, or not. I will do it my regular way, and not test it for sharpness, but send it right back to you. Then your comments would be appreciated, and we can learn from it, one way, or the other ...........
    I got the iron back - thanks Tom. And it is sharper than I usually get it on the WS3000, that I'll readily admit. I get .0015 shavings with the WS3000, and I got .0010 with the iron you sent back to me. So yes, I could have sharper tools. And I could be better at handling a plane as well. But in terms of my #4 doing what I want it to do, and being able to turn around from the bench, turn on the WS3000 and have it back to the best I can get it to, and then be back at work on the bench - I'll take it. Working on stones - particularly water stones - has never held any allure for me. I find it a PITA. I can smooth a piece of walnut or QSWO just fine with the WS3000, and if I had you sharpen them they would definitely be sharper, but would I see an appreciable difference in the work I do? Maybe a subtle one, but it just isn't worth the time and effort for me to use stones and push past what I now get.

    I look forward to a vid on you sharpen - email me when you post it if you would, so I don't miss it.

    Thanks.
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  14. #44
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki8tt-VjwqI

    when in doubt ask paul sellers

  15. #45
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    Just because I sharpened my 7 chisels and 3 plane blades this afternoon, I'll chime in.

    Finding the bevel (I threw away my Lee Valley Mark One guide years ago) is the same as looking for light under a straight edge. You need to get down in the weeds with a good light behind the bevel and your hand already positioned to hold what you see. Before long you'll be able to feel that the bevel is flat on the stone.

    With my King Water Stones, 600 and 8000, I can also see if the sludge is coming up over the flat uniformly. After 10 or 15 or 100 passes then you may wipe off the chisel or blade and see what's what. Prior to knowing by feel where you are, which may take a lot of sharpening, being dissatisfied and going back at it guarantees a second or third bevel so... get good at it. Really though, if after the first go and seeing the sludge coming up over the flat more or less uniformly, you will have a bevel you can go on to hone. So rub the flat just 3 or 4 times on the 600 or medium or 400 grit or whatever to remove the wire and move on to the honing. No more than 10 passes on my 8000 makes that one MM. at the edge wonderfully shiny in the same angle to light as let's you see if there's issues on a work piece. 3 or 4 more passes with the handle raised just enough you think for certain the stone will be gouged but isn't, give you the micro-bevel. Remove the wire as above. Keep your hands, feet, and small children away from the edge. As noted in a reply above, if it stops on your thumbnail, it's sharp. If it mortises your thumbnail. it's damn sharp.

    This is only for a new piece or after using the chisel on masonry. Once sharp, only the 8000 is necessary.

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