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my bench is 4' wide and was not intended to be used just for handtools but just now while writing this post I'm thinking now that I've moved and have a bigger garage, I might consider building a more traditional narrow bench for handtools. oooooo.
my current bench is 4' wide because Its intent is to have something to use as a base for 4' cauls for building interior doors, veneer pressing, etc...
[OP]
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Random heavy objects idea also came to my head, I am just wondering if that develops enough pressure for a strong glue joint. The objects might be relatively heavy, but since the surface area is very large, so the pressure wouldn't be that high even if I put 100 kg of stuff on top (I think).Originally Posted by Nicholas Lawrence
I will post pictures in this thread, once there's something to postI have to admit that although I am a guy - father of a 4 year old daughter, I do also drool over baby pictures!
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I'd love to get a single plank, but I couldn't find anything like that so far. I might just don't know where to look, as I didn't learn enough German (and no French at all) to confidently find relatively obscure (for average people) things in Germany, Belgium and France (all within half an hour drive). I will keep looking, though, I do try to ask around whenever there is a chance.
[OP]
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Derek, I understand that 22" or 24" should be enough for most things woodworking related. I am just wondering if extra width (which could be useful when I'm using the bench for purposes other than woodworking) would somehow cause problems or inconveniences not found when using a 22-24" bench? Schwarz mentioned something about being able to slip an entire cabinet over a 22" workbench - that would be impossible if the bench is wider than the cabinet's inner width, although I can't quite picture this (if bench is longer than the cabinet, how could it be slipped on it?). If there are real advantages to keep the bench relatively narrow, I will consider to do so. If that is the case, and if I would really like to have it wider sometimes for some other things, perhaps I could make an "extension" on the side that could be attached or detached as needed.
Contributor
Sorry I'm late to this. I have nothing additional to add to the discussion regarding height. However, I think a narrow bench is better for a small space. Mine is 18 wide and about 6 ft. long. The narrow width allows me to easily reach my chisels and saws. I can more easily drag the bench out when I need to and work from both sides without reclamping or repositioning the work.
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Hello Gene,
Here are a few thoughts on my experiences, mostly echoing what has been said by others. I'm in the "it took years to build camp" because 1) I had young kids and a demanding job at the time, 2) I already had a workable bench, and 3) see #1.
I went round-and-round about design and ended up deciding on a Roubo (search "Is the Klausz-Scan-Frid bench dead for the whole saga), in part because it is (relatively) straight-forward to build. I have a solid top now, but built as a split-top because I was able to handle the split top alone and that approach definitely eased the construction process.
As far as height, I was thinking about this thread this weekend as I was able get into the shop for the first time in a long time. I'm 6'0" and my bench is 35" (i.e., spot on the Schwarz guideline). The height is just right when planing for any length of time because my posture is as Derek describes, with the forearm parallel to the top, but the work is low enough that the power comes from my legs. It is too low for smoothing/sawing/joinery work while standing. However, I am in the process of building a joinery bench that will be considerably higher. I planned to have a separate joinery bench at the outset (a moxon or bench on bench are the same solution). In other words, I would recommend a low-ish bench for planing since it sounds like you plan to do quite a bit of dimensioning by hand and a moxon for joinery (you can make a perfectly functional moxon for almost no cost). For width, I've been very happy with 24" and wouldn't want it wider after having used both along a wall and out in the shop space.
Ken's advice is solid-go for something straight forward and functional as you can manage, get to work, and plan to build your 'lifetime' bench after getting some experience (and connections for good lumber at reasonable prices).
Best of luck and we'll all enjoy watching your adventure.
Best,
Chris
"You can observe a lot just by watching."
--Yogi Berra
[OP]
Member
Jim, I've looked into this topic some more, and found that a product called "BSH" (Brettschichtholz ) in Germany is similar to what you mentioned. It is available only in softwood (e.g. spruce, larch or Douglas fir, but it seems most suppliers offer spruce). It's cheaper than beech... a 100x320x3000 (4"x12.6", 10' long) spruce beam can be bought for 97 EUR. It is already planed AND chamfered... If I cross-cut it in half and glue the halves edge-to-edge, I would have to plane the edges until the chamfer is gone (to make it neat), OR just live with a little v-groove in the middle, that would get smaller and smaller as I re-flatten the bench. I would then get a 25" wide 4" thick board, 5' long. Even cheaper if I go 80 mm (3 1/8") thick. I would need to buy quite a lot of bar or pipe clamps to do the glue-up, but those should be useful in the future, and I like to invest in tools. Should I go for it instead of my beech panels glued faced-to-face idea? If yes, 80 or 100 mm thick?
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80 would be my guess...you're the one that has to lift it.
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My choice would be to choose the hardest of the woods available.
How often do you think you will need to flatten the top?
You could also have a split top bench. Some like this for clamping. My split top bench plan will have a tool tray in the middle with a removable bottom for cleaning and clamping.
With a narrow split in the top a fence can be fit in the slot for a stop when needed.
A v-groove might help keeping pencils and small tools from rolling away.
Pipe clamps are among my favorites. They can use different lengths of pipe for any size project that needs gluing.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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It took a couple minutes to find that Hugo Kämpf in Thüngen sells oak planks cut to size and they speak English (which would be fairly common). I would search for sawmills, and contact them.
Contributor
Gene, my bench is laminated rather than a single piece for the top. I would rather have a laminated top, although it is more work. Not only would a solid, single board be much more complex to transport, then thickness (as I recall, Chris Schwarz and Co, on their annual builds, use very large machines to joint, thickness and then mortice) ... and a solid, single board of around 3” - 4” thick would require a long time to dry, and even then would be subject to movement. The choice for a single piece in Roubo’s day was likely because it would have been more economical than laminations.
Incidentally, the top on my bench is European Oak, which means that it was imported from Eastern Europe (the base is reclaimed Jarrah, from roofing rafters).
Two additional points of dubious interest: I built my current bench over the course of 12 weekends, beginnjng January 2012. This is documented here (scan down the index page): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/index.html
The bench was planed/re-flattened last year for the first time after the build. This was quick and easy as it was pretty flat to begin.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Last edited by Derek Cohen; 01-22-2020 at 8:11 PM.
Contributor
Gene, I posted pictures of my bench so that you can see that it is close to the rear wall, and the 22” width makes it possible to reach across for tools.
On the few occasions where a wider top could be a help with support (it occurs infrequently), then I simply slip a board of MDF or ply over the bench top. I use MDF under work pieces when chopping waste from dovetails, and sometimes these case piece needs to be repositioned for a hold down.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Member
Derek, I looked at all the people planing in the blog you referenced on Monday. The various guys pictured with planes have one thing in common: they all use power equipment for most of their planing. And it shows. Further, your own bench was made using power equipment which Gene Pavlovsky lacks.
Workers in the 18th century used a solid plank because it was very much the easiest method. I worked on an 18th century bench at a historical site that was 13 feet long and three inches thick, one piece. Later when that shop burned down in 1980, I was brought back to make a new bench from a 16 foot plank. It is crazy to make up a bench out of little strips if one can possibly avoid it. And long term delamination is a worry.
Contributor
Warren, I agree with you that power equipment is needed for a laminated top. It can be done without power equipment - many have - but it seems a waste of energy. I was not aware that Gene lacks the equipment. Still, it may be a better alternative than one thick top when transportation and manual handling are factored in (he may be able to get some assistance here). Only Gene can make that call.
With regard possible de-lamination, there are numerous examples of benches that are many decades old to demonstrate that this need not be the case. Conversely, a recent blog by Chris Schwarz on the one-piece tops his group made, noted that they all needed significant re-flattening. So ... six or one and half dozen of the other. There is no perfect answer - it comes down to what one is looking for, a historical recreation/working tool or just a working tool.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Member
Gene, I live in southern Germany and went to the local saw mill when sourcing wood for my bench top. Turned out they had douglas fir construction lumber about 10 cm thick. I bought one plank, and had enough for a ca 22´´ wide top with just one glue joint (not hard with hand planes and winding sticks). Don´t remember what I paid, but it wasnt even close to 200 Euros. The top is about 7.5 feet long and very solid.
I would not try to laminate a top out of two sheets. I cant see how to get enough pressure over such a big surface without spending a fortune on good (deep reach) clamps. I think the estimate is right, that even 100s of kilos of weights would not give enough pressure.
I also would stay away from "brettschichtholz" or engineered beams if you are working the bench with hand planes. These laminated beams are glued up of many pieces with grain running in all directions. Not nice to plane by hand. Keep the number of glue lines to a minimum, and orient the pieces for easy planing.
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