Reasons NOT to use hide glue for workbench

[chris carter]

Is there any reason NOT to use hide glue when building a workbench? I’m in the early stages of building a new split-top roubo bench and approaching my first M&T glue-ups. I mostly use hot (and sometimes liquid) hide glue building my furniture and other projects and it just makes joints go together so ridiculously easily without any force. But I know that despite being strong hide glue is very brittle when it’s fully dry. I’m wondering if that’s potentially problematic once I start pounding away on this bench for the next 40 years or however long I live and can raise a mallet. I just wonder if all the hard shocks combined with some flexing will cause the glue to crack the way a luthier cracks open the top of a violin for a repair. I realize that back in the day they used hide glue for everything, but they also had no choice and I’ve been unable to find good info on how well these benches held up over time. The abuse a piece of furniture takes is one thing, but the abuse a workbench takes is on a whole different level of torture. Granted, I could easily repair any M&T joints, but I was also planning on drawboring them which would complicate such a repair down the road. Would love some thoughts on this....

[Doug Dawson]

Is there any reason NOT to use hide glue when building a workbench? I’m in the early stages of building a new split-top roubo bench and approaching my first M&T glue-ups. I mostly use hot (and sometimes liquid) hide glue building my furniture and other projects and it just makes joints go together so ridiculously easily without any force. But I know that despite being strong hide glue is very brittle when it’s fully dry. I’m wondering if that’s potentially problematic once I start pounding away on this bench for the next 40 years or however long I live and can raise a mallet. I just wonder if all the hard shocks combined with some flexing will cause the glue to crack the way a luthier cracks open the top of a violin for a repair. I realize that back in the day they used hide glue for everything, but they also had no choice and I’ve been unable to find good info on how well these benches held up over time. The abuse a piece of furniture takes is one thing, but the abuse a workbench takes is on a whole different level of torture. Granted, I could easily repair any M&T joints, but I was also planning on drawboring them which would complicate such a repair down the road. Would love some thoughts on this....

I don't see how a properly made draw bore would complicate a repair. FWIW, if you draw bored a M&T joint in a workbench, you likely wouldn't even _need_ to glue it.

[Andrew Seemann]

The main reason I would see for not using hide glue on a bench is the reason that musical instrument makers like it: lack of creep. While this is (debatably) a positive for a musical instrument, it usually is a negative on a piece of furniture where you are fighting expansion and contraction. On a Roubo, you have that long, wide joint on the top. Even with book matched pieces, there probably will be some uneven movement.

Titebond or similar will accommodate this movement (to a point) without failure. Also, a joint that large is going to be a bit difficult to do without the shop being really hot or adding urea or a similar retardant (basically making Liquid Hide Glue), which at that point you might as well use Titebond. If you go the Titebond route, use original, rather than 2. It has a longer open time. Same thing with the M&T joints. It is just easier to use and gives just a little bit in service, especially on the long and wide joints of a workbench. On my first Frid bench, the dovetails on the tail vise would have cracked if I had used hide glue, they were just wider than what the maple wanted to do.

Background: I used to be a hide glue snob, but now I only use it where its properties make sense in application/usage. Cold glue is just so much easier to use, and it works for 90% of what I do. And for all the mystique and reverence I see piled on hide glue by purists, over my life, I have seen much more failure in hide glue joints than any other type.

[J. Greg Jones]

It was 10, perhaps 11, years ago this month when a group of us spent a week at Kelly Mehler’s woodworking school building 10 all new workbenches. We made some with a Roubo split-top, some were more of a Holtzapffel design, but all the bases were assembled with drawbored M&T joints and Old Brown Hide Glue. To my knowledge, there has not been any failures in any of them.

[Derek Cohen]

It was 10, perhaps 11, years ago this month when a group of us spent a week at Kelly Mehler’s woodworking school building 10 all new workbenches. We made some with a Roubo split-top, some were more of a Holtzapffel design, but all the bases were assembled with drawbored M&T joints and Old Brown Hide Glue. To my knowledge, there has not been any failures in any of them.

Yes, Greg ... but it has only been 10 years. Please report back in 100 years

I cannot recall what glue I used. It is likely I used Titebond Liquid Hide Glue on anything that may need pulling apart for repair (such as a leg joint), since that is my usual rule). I am happy to use yellow glues on a panel, such as the bench top, where it is not expected to come apart.

Regards from Berlin

Derek

[Dave Anderson NH]

Andrew has some good points about hide vs Titebond. I do disagree on which Titebond to use. When I built my bench I chose Titebond Extend which has the longest open time of all the various Titebonds. It made the glueups much less stressful and eliminated rushing to get everything together and clamped. For furniture I use hide glue, either liquid or hot.

[Mike Henderson]

The main reason I would see for not using hide glue on a bench is the reason that musical instrument makers like it: lack of creep.

I don't think lack of creep is the reason luthiers use hide glue. I spent some time with a luthier and discussed glue. He said he uses hide glue because it breaks away, allow him to remove a top(also called the "front") or back for repair of the interior of an instrument. I asked about fish glue and he said that if he used that, he wouldn't be able to remove the top or back.

He said he uses a thin tool, and hunts for an opening between the top and the side. He slips the tool into that opening and then pries the top off slowly. The hide glue apparently does not have a lot of strength in tension and it allows the top or back to break free at the glue line.

I want to be very clear that luthiers do not use heat to remove a top or back. Attempting to do so would damage the finish and cause significant harm to the value of the instrument.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Of course, if you want really long open time, there are some very slow epoxies available. West Systems has a slow hardener that gives you at least an hour of open time. If you put the glue on ice you can get a lot more.

I tried hot hide glue and open time is a serious problem. I don't know how our ancestors applied hot hide glue to dovetails and got them together before the glue gelled.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, the best thin tool for opening glue joints is the springs from broken tape measures. Break them to size and file off
the burr.

[Andrew Seemann]

I don't think lack of creep is the reason luthiers use hide glue. I spent some time with a luthier and discussed glue. He said he uses hide glue because it breaks away, allow him to remove a top(also called the "front") or back for repair of the interior of an instrument. I asked about fish glue and he said that if he used that, he wouldn't be able to remove the top or back.
Mike

It is one of the reasons that instrument makers use it, not specifically luthiers, particularly for something like a bridge on a harpsichord or piano, where there is a lot of sideways force. Additional reasons are supposed enhanced transfer of vibrations and other things like that. Glue is quite controversial in instrument making, kind of like finishes, (nitro vs poly for a guitar or Stradivarius magic vs whatever modern-varnish-that-couldn't-hope-to-be-as-good). Many a flame war and probably a fist fight or two has been started by glue discussions. My personal belief is that since hide glue is harder to use vs standard glue, the romantic nature of instrument makers makes some of them believe it to be superior just because it is harder to use. Kind of like a planed vs sanded surface debate.

As you mention, reversibility is one of the main reasons it gets used, and probably the most legitimate instrument making reason to use it. Shock, water, and heat can all be used, or combinations thereof as appropriate. The supposed acoustic and need for non creep properties relative to standard Titlebond style glues are probably exaggerated at best in the practical physics of instruments.


To extend the working time of hide glue, either the work (or the whole shop) can be heated to make it take longer to cool and gel, or else retardants can be added like salt, urea, or other chemicals with long names I can't remember off the top of my head.

Even with set up extended, I probably wouldn't use it on a work bench, as most of its "good" properties are lost on a bench at best, or not helpful at worst

[chris carter]

Thanks Andrew and Mike. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I think I'm going to stick with white glue for this one. I'll just make sure my tenons aren't so snug that I need a sledge hammer to get them together.

BTW - yes, when I do long glue ups, if I use hot hide glue I just add salt to give me more time... or I use the titebond liquid hide glue, but I find that stuff takes FOREVER to harden. If I need a lot of time for non-hide glue, I tend to use Elmers Glue-All which has a very long working time.

[J. Greg Jones]

Yes, Greg ... but it has only been 10 years. Please report back in 100 years

I suspect it is highly unlikely that I’ll be around in 30 years to report how they’ve done after 40 years!

[Andrew Seemann]

Thanks Andrew and Mike. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I think I'm going to stick with white glue for this one. I'll just make sure my tenons aren't so snug that I need a sledge hammer to get them together.

I'd probably go with a "yellow" glue one a "white" glue. They are stronger, and white glues can exhibit quite a bit of creep, sometimes more than desire. White glues also can be a bit on the gummy side. Titlebond Extend as noted above is ideal for the slab joint, Original would probably work fine if you can't find Extend (it isn't as readily available here), or their equivalents.

[Doug Dawson]

I suspect it is highly unlikely that I’ll be around in 30 years to report how they’ve done after 40 years!

How are the benches doing that are already 100+ years old...

[chris carter]

You could probably count on one hand the number of workbenches that are still in use today after 100 years of continuous use (even ones that didn't get continuous use are few and far between). The problem is determining what retired the bench before its 100^th birthday. Did the hide glue crack and fail? Did it take so many dings and dents that after 80 resurfacings there was nothing left to resurface? Termites? Rot? Did someone have a bad winter and need more firewood?