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Thread: Experience with Surfprep or Airvantage RO Sanders

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Robbinett View Post
    We use SurfPrep pneumatic 3x4’s at work and they are excellent especially with the flexible pads and abrasives for sanding profiles in cabinet doors and moulding. I would imagine their orbitals to be of good quality as well. I personally love our Festool RO sanders but the duel mode Bosch is great too. If you are building any cabinetry or furniture the Rotex or Bosch duel mode sanders are pretty much the most important thing to have because of the time they save.
    I have the air version of the 3x4 surfprep and it is really handy for certain things. I have a compressor that can handle an air sander, but did the math on the electricity use, and it would pay for me to buy an electric vs air. As far as the Rotex goes, I am not sure it would be worth it for me? It sounds like you have a lot more experience then I do on that.

    I build a lot of cabinet doors, and they get widebelt sanded to 180, then I sand them at 150 with the RO sander to remove the cross grain scratches. This takes me, on average, about 5 minutes a door, but about half of that time is easing the edges and hand sanding edge profiles.

    Back to the sanders-I would just buy the Surfprep-but it is over $200 more then the Airvantage...

  2. #17
    Have you checked pricing at Wurrth? I've been waiting to pull the pin on some Airvantage myself but remember checking surfprep pricing at wurth and was surprised. Still not as cheap as the air vantage but may be worth a look.

    Also agree completely with electric vs air. I can make miles of air but its way more expensive which Is why we run dc electrics almost everywhere.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Have you checked pricing at Wurrth? I've been waiting to pull the pin on some Airvantage myself but remember checking surfprep pricing at wurth and was surprised. Still not as cheap as the air vantage but may be worth a look.

    Also agree completely with electric vs air. I can make miles of air but its way more expensive which Is why we run dc electrics almost everywhere.
    I do have an account with them, I will have to check with my sales rep to see what the price would be.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Grant View Post
    I do have an account with them, I will have to check with my sales rep to see what the price would be.
    Found this thread a little while ago while searching for info on the airvantage pneumatic sanders. Electric isn't an option working with carbon fiber... Came back just to post that the best price I found on the pneumatic sanders was from airvantagetool.com Not sure that would be true of the electric ones too. Also, I think the airvantage pneumatic ROS, the Mirka, and possibly the 3m elite are all from the same manufacturer. Likely the company airvantage distributes. They have several interchangable parts.
    Makes me wonder if that's true of the electric sanders too.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    Electric isn't an option working with carbon fiber...
    Ummmmm Why?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Ummmmm Why?
    Carbon fiber swarf is electrically conductive. It probably won't cause issues if you aren't doing it a lot, or if your tool is very well sealed, but eventually you'll short something.
    Also, the one I just got will be getting used for wet sanding finishes. Likely for a few hours at a time. I don't think an electric sander would hold up well in that environment of carbon dust, finish, and water.

    I do use mostly electric sanders in the wood shop.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    Carbon fiber swarf is electrically conductive. It probably won't cause issues if you aren't doing it a lot, or if your tool is very well sealed, but eventually you'll short something.
    Also, the one I just got will be getting used for wet sanding finishes. Likely for a few hours at a time. I don't think an electric sander would hold up well in that environment of carbon dust, finish, and water.

    I do use mostly electric sanders in the wood shop.
    All the sanders you posted (other than Mirka Deros) are DC with a remote (wet=void). We have wet sanded miles of solid surface (like wet beyond wet) with one of our Ceros' (no longer available). Every one of the DC brushless that I know of is completely sealed (DC wire connections and all) for wet sanding. They are marketing them to body shops after all. If they cant sand wet they are useless. I dont know for sure but the 3M Elite in talking to the 3M rep is no longer though its still shown on places like MSC. To my knowledge 3M dropped the entire DC electric line likely because they would never make a sale with their insane markups compared to the exact same models being on the market from other places.

    There is not an open port anywhere on the DC models we have. Not sure I'd be totally ok with models like the Deros where you have AC at the tool but wet all day with any DC is of no concern to me, nor would swarf of any form. Your going to eat bearings and shafts galore with SS or carbon so that may be an argument for buying cheaper air sanders and just tossing them when they are roached.
    Last edited by Mark Bolton; 09-09-2020 at 5:52 PM.

  8. #23
    Update.......
    I completely forgot about this thread until I got an email notification today. I got a quote on the Surfprep sander from my sales rep at Wurth....it was above MSRP.....I don't know what was up with that?....

    I called Surfprep directly and they sold me one of their DC sanders with the external power supply for not much more then the ones listed on fleabay. I think they are discontinuing them. They have the 'gen 2' version now which looks like it has the power supply built in.

    I probably only have 15-20 hours on it, but I like it so far. Also the sales rep from Surfprep was professional, knowledgeable, and helpful. He really seemed to care about their products and was extremely knowledgeable about abrasives and sanding. He called me after the sale and talked for probably 20 minutes about what my shop's sanding needs are and how to help me in that department.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    All the sanders you posted (other than Mirka Deros) are DC with a remote (wet=void). We have wet sanded miles of solid surface (like wet beyond wet) with one of our Ceros' (no longer available). Every one of the DC brushless that I know of is completely sealed (DC wire connections and all) for wet sanding.
    Hi Mark
    I never mentioned any electric sanders. I was only talking about the pneumatic versions.

    On the DC ones you're using, that's good information. I can definitely see some advantages to an electric tool. They'll be quieter, speed adjustable, and cheaper if you're only operating a few of them at a time. I can also see the manufacturers preferring to sell you 4 $700 sanders, over 4 $200 sanders. They make more, and you spend less since you don't have to maintain and operate an air compressor all the time. Or listen to it.
    I am curious if your sales rep would be comfortable enough with their water seals and durability to have their tools dragged over, under, and through aircraft and marine structures, probably around corners and edges, and likely in a place where guys will accidentally be stepping on those 50 or 100 foot cords. Or if they would trust their water seals using the sanders upside down and sideways in wet environments sanding a slurry of conductive material for hours at a time.

    I'll be impressed if they are, but even if they are, I wouldn't be. I guess I wouldn't want to drag around a 50 or 100ft electrical cord in a wet environment, even if it's only 12 or 24 volts.

    With a pneumatic tools, you've got a tool pressurized with air and you spend at most a few hundred bucks per tool. Yes, they're annoyingly loud and you have to maintain them and add oil, but if it breaks, you can rebuild it yourself, and again, no electricity... I know, I'm fixated on that electric part.

    The last piece of the puzzle, even if you're right about the electrics being equally safe, is that my son has to own and maintain his own tools, and so do the other 30 or so guys where he's working. Their employer provides the air. He might be able to use one of your dc models, but why would want to when the pneumatics are cheaper and likely safer?

    For me, I'll look into the dc ROS's, but I admit I like that I can have five different types and sizes of pneumatic sanders for a few hundred dollars and not worry about any of them.

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess, pun intended

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    Hi Mark
    I never mentioned any electric sanders. I was only talking about the pneumatic versions.
    First off, your mixing, shuffling, and cherry picking wildly tangent points to suit your argument... Anyone talking of extreme marine, 150' cords, blah blah blah.. your in a different world at that point and price should be no object because one would hope that individual is being handsomely compensated either by very wealthy individuals or the federal governement.


    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    They'll be quieter, speed adjustable, and cheaper if you're only operating a few of them at a time.
    They will be quieter and cheaper if your using hundreds of them at a time because you dont have to make the air. If you must have air, it is what it is, you have to make the air. Its just that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    I can also see the manufacturers preferring to sell you 4 $700 sanders, over 4 $200 sanders.
    The sanders are not $700 the ones in this thread are $319

    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    curious if your sales rep would be comfortable enough with their water seals and durability to have their tools dragged over, under, and through aircraft and marine structures, probably around corners and edges, and likely in a place where guys will accidentally be stepping on those 50 or 100 foot cords.
    I have no idea, but again, your cherry picking an uber extreme industrial application as it pertains to "normal" operation. I highly doubt dynabrade warranties any of the same conditions which is why they are rebuildable. I have never had to, but I have no doubt that I could break down one of these sanders and install new bearings if needed. Parts,.. no idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    I guess I wouldn't want to drag around a 50 or 100ft electrical cord in a wet environment, even if it's only 12 or 24 volts.
    Again, this is a shop (more so speaking to a hobby shop but even a pro shop) conversation. If your are so short on receptacles in your shop that you need a 50' cord or a 100' cord.. sorry for your luck. You can put your tongue or your most unprotected of private parts on a 12vdc connection and get nothing, 24vdc,... you may get a tingle... but again.. my guess is neither condition would ever present itself but kudos to your caution.

    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    With a pneumatic tools, you've got a tool pressurized with air and you spend at most a few hundred bucks per tool. Yes, they're annoyingly loud and you have to maintain them and add oil, but if it breaks, you can rebuild it yourself, and again, no electricity... I know, I'm fixated on that electric part.
    Right so electrics arent for you. And its never about noise or oil. Shops are noisy and messy. When you start paying the cost of manufacturing that air... your either on the big money or your looking for options.

    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    The last piece of the puzzle, even if you're right about the electrics being equally safe, is that my son has to own and maintain his own tools, and so do the other 30 or so guys where he's working. Their employer provides the air. He might be able to use one of your dc models, but why would want to when the pneumatics are cheaper and likely safer?
    Safer? Who knows? If he is charged with maintaining his tools then hopefully is is compensated fairly for whatever he is told to use. Im not sure the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    For me, I'll look into the dc ROS's, but I admit I like that I can have five different types and sizes of pneumatic sanders for a few hundred dollars and not worry about any of them.

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess, pun intended
    You cant have five different sanders for the $319 price of one of the sanders Ive posted. You could have 2-3 for the price of a Mirka Deros, Festool, Surfprep, but thats not a reasonable comparison without the consideration of manufacturing air. The cost of a $200 dynabrade is far and away more than that with operating costs.

    I agree fully, different strokes, just dont fabricate your scenario to suit your outcome. Facts are facts. Its 1st grade math. But when you start to blur the math.. its gets goofy..

    Enjoy whatever sander you choose.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    First off, your mixing, shuffling, and cherry picking wildly tangent points to suit your argument... Anyone talking of extreme marine, 150' cords, blah blah blah.. your in a different world at that point and price should be no object because one would hope that individual is being handsomely compensated either by very wealthy individuals or the federal governement.
    I didn't cherry pick anything Mark, nor did I distort the numbers. I said 50 or 100 foot cords because those are sandard sizes for power cords and air hoses, and the parts being sanded can easily be 50+ feet long or wide. You assumed I was talking about a shop sanding something the size of a car or truck. I wasn't.  You took offense that I don't think the electrics are perfect for everyone, but I never disparaged them. I just said they wouldn't be ideal for wet sanding carbon fiber based composites. You countered that they're sealed, and I responded that I still think the pneumatics are safer and more reliable in extreme conditions like the one the airvantage I bought will be used in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    They will be quieter and cheaper if your using hundreds of them at a time because you dont have to make the air. If you must have air, it is what it is, you have to make the air. Its just that simple.
    It's not that simple.If you're working on items in a marina or aircraft hangar where you need to have a more than one tool and you need to be safe, the equation changes. My son can get a quality sander, die grinders, cut off tools, etc, for the price of one of your electric sanders. There's also the opportunity cost of your tools, and since money not spent gets invested elsewhere, the math isn't as easy as you say. I can buy a 3/16 and a 3/32 6" pneumatic sander for under $70 each. If the air supply is already a sunk cost and required for other tools, the pneumatics cost less to buy and while they cost more to operate, they'll be more reliable and won't require adding power cords to the already necessary air hoses. Also, the money not spent can be invested in something else. You're a business owner, so you know about opportunity costs, and in some situations, the energy costs are not a big issue.

    edit: Because you made me curious, Mark, I looked up the operating costs of a compressor capable of providing a net 86cfm. That would be at 175psi. At 460V and 25 amps, 88% motor, pf 85, calculated hp 17.3. To run it for 8000 hours a year costs $9309 if your KW cost is .09. It's closer to 11 cents per KW hour here, so I'll make that $11,300, and let's round up to $12K. That will easily run 15 pneumatic sanders for 8000 hours since they only require 90psi. Obviously we don't work 24/7, so that'd really be $12,000 over about 8 years. Add in 15 pneumatic sanders at $100 each for another $1500, replace them at 4 years, so another $1500, and we're at $15,000. Since you mentioned the Mirka Deros which is a really nice sander, make the pneumatics $200 each, $18,000 over 8 years.

    On the Mirka website they say their sander has a 400 watts power output. I'll assume 100% efficiency so the math will favor you. I said 15 of them, so that's 6000 watts/hour. 6kw/h times $0.11 times 8000 hours is $5280 for the electricity. You saved $7000 in electricity, which is impressive. You also said the sanders cost $320 each, so 15 of them cost $4800. If they also last 4 years when wet sanding, you'll spend another $4800 at the 4 year mark, and your total cost $14,880. $3,120 in savings is pretty good, but it's over 8 years, and the first year costs are higher because each Deros is $120 more than the pneumatics. If you already have the compressor and you need it for other tools like die grinders, cut off tools, and spray guns, do you really think there's a benefit to the electrics? I only posted on this thread because I thought I'd found a site with good prices on tools. The original links didn't work on my cell phone, so I didn't realize it was the same site. I checked them now, and those airvantage sanders are $440 and $500 vs about $210 for the pneumatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    I have no idea, but again, your cherry picking an uber extreme industrial application as it pertains to "normal" operation. I highly doubt dynabrade warranties any of the same conditions which is why they are rebuildable. I have never had to, but I have no doubt that I could break down one of these sanders and install new bearings if needed. Parts,.. no idea.;Again, this is a shop (more so speaking to a hobby shop but even a pro shop) conversation. If your are so short on receptacles in your shop that you need a 50' cord or a 100' cord.. sorry for your luck. You can put your tongue or your most unprotected of private parts on a 12vdc connection and get nothing, 24vdc,... you may get a tingle... but again.. my guess is neither condition would ever present itself but kudos to your caution.
    First off, 12V and 24V can make a pretty good spark and a wet electrical tool that gets carbon fiber dust in it can arc. I never said I was concerned about getting electrocuted, you keep making assumptions. Second, the tool I ordered will be used in a shop, not a shop like mine or even yours, but it's still a shop. And regarding my home shop, it has plenty of electrical and pneumatic outlets everywhere so let's avoid putting each others shops down or implying that's the basis of our positions. I'm sure your shop is more impressive since it's your career, but even though I'm just a hobby/DIY guy who likes to tinker and build guitars, my shop is actually pretty nice. And it's designed with safety in mind. I've got 2 cyclones in the wood shop, one dedicated to my little Camaster CNC, the other bigger one goes to everything else. I also have 2 air cleaners. I know the Camaster is likely very cheap compared to what you own, but it's still pretty nice for a home shop, and I don't need your pity. I also went and looked. There are 6 electrical outlets and 3 air hook-ups within 5 feet of the CNC alone. What tools I choose isn't based on access to one or the other, it's based on what I think will work best for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Safer? Who knows? If he is charged with maintaining his tools then hopefully is is compensated fairly for whatever he is told to use. Im not sure the point.
    He's a kid and he's being fairly compensated. He also only has to have a few tools and could get away with very inexpensive ones for the first couple of years. Since he's doing this just for experience after deferring his first year of college, the job is not about the money. They actually suggested he start with cheap harbor freight tools, because those work fine, and regarding this

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    You cant have five different sanders for the $319 price of one of the sanders Ive posted.
    I can get a 6" ROS, a 3" ROS, a jitterbug, and an inline sander for that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    I agree fully, different strokes, just dont fabricate your scenario to suit your outcome. Facts are facts.
    It's not my scenario, it's just where my son got a job. You're the one who took offense that I didn't think electric orbital sanders were perfect for everyone. I never told the OP not to buy one. I never made any recommendations. I'm sorry I am not as religious about electric tools as you are, but relax, I have nothing against your favorite sanders. I even said I'd look into one for my shop. $320 for a wet sander I can use in the garage or shed where I don't have a compressor nearby sounds pretty reasonable to me. Maybe I'll put a Deros on my Christmas wish list.
    Last edited by todd werner; 09-11-2020 at 12:02 AM. Reason: math/spelling and funny symbols I didn't actually type

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    Because you made me curious, Mark, I looked up the operating costs of a compressor capable of providing a net 86cfm. That would be at 175psi. At 460V and 25 amps, 88% motor, pf 85, calculated hp 17.3.
    This entire thread has never been about air sanders and for whatever reason you've now spun it off into that foolish place... and again you fail to address the "convenient" math and omit the true cost of manufacturing air (which I dont doubt you have no direct out of pocket association with.. its uber expensive). Compressor cost, maintenance, wear, cost of aftercooler/driers which would be imperative at any volume level your spouting, power consumption, automatic oiling and oil where needed, it goes on and on.

    Where needed? Its the best option. Good god man, give it up. Youve spun a hobby $$$ sander into a 300' long aircraft hanger or General Dynamics submarine fabrication facility to get your rocks off on "jitterbugs". What the heck dude?

    But to plaquate you, can argue all you want... none of this is my perogative, or my numbers. Industry _on-mass_ for 20 years now, from Toyota, to the hobbyist in their 9x12 outbuilding with a 110V line run over top of the ground for power, quantify the true cost of "manufacturing" air. Whether its the cost of a small compressor and the line feed, condensate, whatever, or a massive operation running a quarter of a million dollar installation to feed clean dry air with lubricated drops where needed. Its un-godly-expensive even at a small scale. You can cover it with hot fudge sauce all you want, even toss a cherry on top, its never going to taste good.

    Your math is simply a huge fudge which is perfectly fine dude... its been the norm years and years because there were never any reasonably viable alternatives. Run whatever you want,.. stick with what youve always known, stay in that place, all things must remain the same. Zero pressure. Companies can run whatever they want.

    But when you have major operations aggressively quantifying and addressing the true cost of manufacturing air... your pretty much out in the woods which is fine. Enjoy the serenity.

    As Ive said repeatedly, the option was offered as a very slight, and reasonable, upgrade for a one time purchase in a low volume shop given the price point of most sanders at the level just above a home center tool. Its right there in the mix. Not a the end all be all.. just an option.

    But Im not going to not respond to completely fudged math (as stated above)

    This one is officially on PLONK... Good god man.. feel for ya.

  13. #28
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    Actually, Mark, you spun it off. All I did was offer a place to check prices on the electrics when the links in the early posts didn't work for me. Oh, and I mentioned I thought electric sanders weren't an option with carbon fiber.
    You said they are, and that you've wet sanded miles solid surface with your ceros.
    I said cool, good to know, but that I still would be more comfortable not introducing electricity into a wet environment with conductive dust. I also asked you to ask your sales rep if they would recommend the electric tool in an environment a bit tougher on tools than sanding countertops.
    Somehow, it seems to have triggered you that I still think air tools are probably safer and more reliable around carbon fiber dust and water That's despite the fact that I acknowledged everything you said. Go back and read it again. You've also exagerated or distorted everything I said. You turned my thinking it would be good to avoid dragging around a 50 or 100 foot extension cord around a wet dusty area into my son needing a 150' power cord in a 300' aircraft hanger. You do realize that even a single engine Cesna is over 25' long with a wing span of over 30 + feet, right? Where are you getting general dynamics submarines from?

    Look, I'm happy you're being environmentally conscientious and saving energy. Still, for a guy with a business big enough that something not even listed on your website, solid surface counters, seems to generates millions of dollars in revenue, you are really hung up on defending a tool that could save a few thousand dollars on electricity, even in an environment where it may not be the safest option.
    That's despite that fact that I never once said someone with a small shop, or anyone who can use one safely on their projects, shouldn't opt for the electric.
    Sorry again that this triggered you somehow, and honestly, congrats on building such a successful business and finding what works well for you.
    Last edited by todd werner; 09-12-2020 at 9:49 PM. Reason: spelling

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    They will be quieter and cheaper if your using hundreds of them at a time because you dont have to make the air. If you must have air, it is what it is, you have to make the air. Its just that simple.

    The sanders are not $700 the ones in this thread are $319

    Again, this is a shop (more so speaking to a hobby shop but even a pro shop) conversation.
    One more thing, because I looked up prices on a surfprep and airvantage, and I can't get one for $319. You said the electric is cheaper for hobby users.

    Here's a link to the energy.gov site with the math.
    https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/fi...essed_air1.pdf

    If I use my pneumatic ROS for 2 hours a week, with my 5hp compressor, the compressor will run about half the time. Actually a little less since I run my tools at around 75psi, and the astro pneumatic onyx uses 5.5cfm. But I'll go with 2 hours average even though that's high, and I'll round up everything since you seem to be a skeptic. Using the government formula, not mine, my residential non-deductable electicity cost of $0.11 cents/kw hour, I'll spend about $20 a year on electricity to run my $80 sander. You claim yours cost you $320, and even though the best online prices are a LOT more, I'll go with $320.

    After one year, I spent $100, after 5 years I spent $180 total. The sander is loud, so is the compressor, but I saved $140. How many hours a week would I have to use that single tool to make your ceros cost effective? If I spring for a $240 tool that uses twice as much air, my cost might go to $40 a year and it still takes me 2 years to cost as much as you say the ceros costs ($319). If I use the online price of a Mirka Deros or a Surfprep, I can't figure out how I'll save money even don't invest the lower up front savings.

    The opportunity cost of your choice seems pretty high for anyone not using that tool a LOT. If you use it to finish millions of dollars worth of solid surface like you claim, I can see you saving money, but I don't see it as cost effective for a hobby user, and I already said I don't think it's as safe in some environments.

    I'm using your stated sander price, the listed price of the astro pneumatic sander, the air specs on the sander, the actual cost of electricity, a government website formula, a calculator, and I'd have to triple the calculated electricity costs to make your "$319" sander cost me less over 5 years. I am not mad and I have no emotional attachment to either type of tool. I just don't like unsubstantiated claims or being accused of making stuff up. So I've showed you the math for my shop with a reference, and I have to use a single sander 2 hours a week and triple the electricity cost to make your $319 sander go good financial value over 5 years. Can you show me your math that proves it's "always cheaper"? Again, I am not recommending pneumatic sanders, I'm just showing you my math.

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