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Thread: "Live edge lumber" musings

  1. #76
    Love love love Claro

    But man I have come to loath walnut in general. It’s so in gauge right now. Everybody whom can afford a $150k plus kitchen renovation or or 3 million dollar home just has to have walnut floor and or counters cabs island something. It can be very beautiful but it’s so overused. Then the stain generally slathered all over it to even it out just takes everything I love about wood right out of it.

    But claro is beautiful. I live near Berkshire products and man o man is that stuff expensive. I’m about to purchase some black and white ebony for a project if you wanna talk expensive though. Holly smokes best sit down..

    Quote Originally Posted by John Makar View Post
    This may screw up the market further, but do you have any idea what Claro Walnut slabs go for?

    https://cswoods.com/

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Maybe its just me, but I don't think a table with large holes in it is very practical. Love the beauty of the wood though.

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New Hill, NC
    Posts
    2,568
    Without delving into the artistic issues, from a manufacturing standpoint it costs me a lot more to produce wide slabs as compared with standard lumber.

    For starters, frequently each slab weighs several hundred pounds (the one in the photo below is over 1000 lbs). This means that you're not offbearing them with a person or two. Instead you have to shut down the mill and use a combination of muscle and heavy equipment to remove them one by one from the log. Then you have to sticker them (without crunching your fingers). Production rate when milling and stickering large slabs is very slow.

    Scott Bon and Shea slabv2.jpg

    Second, the production rate when sawing through a ultra wide log (48", give or take) is much slower than slicing up an 18" log into lumber. Sometimes it takes us 20-30 minutes or more to mill a single slab. Some of you may recognize this photo from the current issue of FWW Tools and Shops (photo used with permission of The Taunton Press). It took us almost 25 minutes per slab on this log, and another 10 -15 minutes to off-bear and stack it. In that same amount of time we can produce several hundred board feet of typical flat sawn 4/4 lumber with our hydraulic band mill.

    Article first page compressed.jpg


    Third, big old trees are usually yard trees, and they almost always have metal in them. So your yield is lower and your costs are higher ($150 loss per destroyed chain in my instance).

    Fourth is the drying costs. I just pulled several very large oak slabs out of the kiln that have been air drying in a shelter for over 4 years. Even then they required over a month in the kiln to finish off and sterilize. So maybe this year I'll see a partial return on investment for significant costs that I incurred back in 2015 to acquire, mill and transport slabs.

    Fifth is the drying losses. Long, wide slabs are going to move as they dry, and there isn't a whole lot that you can do to prevent it. I've had slabs distort that had over 20,000 lbs of weight on them. So if you've got a 70" wide, long gnarly log that you want to net a 2" S2S kiln dried slab out of, you'd better be milling it around 4" green in order to have enough room to flatten it after drying and still net 2". So you're yield drops almost in half, and your costs are significantly greater. It takes us about half a day to S2S ultra large slabs.

    Sixth is loading and transportation costs. The log in the photo below weighs almost 35,000 lbs. That requires very expensive cranes on each end for loading and unloading, not to mention setting up to mill.

    Big quad log only.jpg


    These factors don't apply as much to narrower slabs (less than 20"), or green slabs, but if you're buying well dried, very large slabs there are a lot of costs associated with milling, drying and surfacing them.
    Last edited by Scott T Smith; 01-04-2020 at 8:38 PM.

  4. #79
    I am renovating my kitchen and doing a walnut island. Oh yes, and one edge will be live.

    The worst of all worlds

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    I am renovating my kitchen and doing a walnut island. Oh yes, and one edge will be live.

    The worst of all worlds
    No worries! Kitchens are dated and worn in 7-10 yrs anyway, so just re-purpose the slab when you demo the whole enchilada.

  6. #81
    Or, sell it to itinerant kitchen refurbishers. They are a noble breed, certain to make good social use of it.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,842
    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    I am renovating my kitchen and doing a walnut island. Oh yes, and one edge will be live.

    The worst of all worlds
    Great choice, IMHO!!! If I were going to stay at this property for longer than is likely going to happen at this point (once the younger graduates from PSU and the older ... hopefully ... gets more independent, Professor Dr. SWMBO and I will likely consider down-sizing) I'd cheerfully re-do our kitchen island with a natural edge top, one-side like you describe with the straight edge on the "work" side which is galley-like. Honestly, I may still do that.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    924
    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    David, I dont "know" anybody who has sat on Mr. Nakahima's products. Did you find them to be comfortable? I ask because ... well, some of them just don't look comfortable. I keep thinking of this one when I say that. And I acknowledge that I may have missed the whole point of this piece- I'm not trying to be a wiseguy.
    Attachment 422911
    The experience was entirely pleasant. Besides that, the seating was comfortable as well.
    Rustic? Well, no. That was not my intention!

  9. #84
    I have to admit I have started making 'live edge' cheese boards to give away.

    Of course you guys will recognize them for what the really are - off cuts. I make sure to set the mitre saw up at 15* an 27* or whatever and chop off some corners and hack at the previously square boards with a chisel, then work them over with my Rotex and finish with mineral oil. Takes about 30 minutes to make three boards.

    Never wanted to make them, but the wife wanted a cheese board for a dinner party starting in 30 min so I made one for her fast as she said she like this style. Then people asked for them, so I made more.

    It does help with the scrap pile shrink though.

    IMG_2789.jpg
    Last edited by jeff norris 2011; 01-06-2020 at 9:20 PM.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Ellsworth, Maine
    Posts
    1,808
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott T Smith View Post
    Without delving into the artistic issues, from a manufacturing standpoint it costs me a lot more to produce wide slabs as compared with standard lumber.

    For starters, frequently each slab weighs several hundred pounds (the one in the photo below is over 1000 lbs). This means that you're not offbearing them with a person or two. Instead you have to shut down the mill and use a combination of muscle and heavy equipment to remove them one by one from the log. Then you have to sticker them (without crunching your fingers). Production rate when milling and stickering large slabs is very slow.

    Scott Bon and Shea slabv2.jpg

    Second, the production rate when sawing through a ultra wide log (48", give or take) is much slower than slicing up an 18" log into lumber. Sometimes it takes us 20-30 minutes or more to mill a single slab. Some of you may recognize this photo from the current issue of FWW Tools and Shops (photo used with permission of The Taunton Press). It took us almost 25 minutes per slab on this log, and another 10 -15 minutes to off-bear and stack it. In that same amount of time we can produce several hundred board feet of typical flat sawn 4/4 lumber with our hydraulic band mill.

    Article first page compressed.jpg


    Third, big old trees are usually yard trees, and they almost always have metal in them. So your yield is lower and your costs are higher ($150 loss per destroyed chain in my instance).

    Fourth is the drying costs. I just pulled several very large oak slabs out of the kiln that have been air drying in a shelter for over 4 years. Even then they required over a month in the kiln to finish off and sterilize. So maybe this year I'll see a partial return on investment for significant costs that I incurred back in 2015 to acquire, mill and transport slabs.

    Fifth is the drying losses. Long, wide slabs are going to move as they dry, and there isn't a whole lot that you can do to prevent it. I've had slabs distort that had over 20,000 lbs of weight on them. So if you've got a 70" wide, long gnarly log that you want to net a 2" S2S kiln dried slab out of, you'd better be milling it around 4" green in order to have enough room to flatten it after drying and still net 2". So you're yield drops almost in half, and your costs are significantly greater. It takes us about half a day to S2S ultra large slabs.

    Sixth is loading and transportation costs. The log in the photo below weighs almost 35,000 lbs. That requires very expensive cranes on each end for loading and unloading, not to mention setting up to mill.

    Big quad log only.jpg


    These factors don't apply as much to narrower slabs (less than 20"), or green slabs, but if you're buying well dried, very large slabs there are a lot of costs associated with milling, drying and surfacing them.

    Scott this is very good information. I don't know that side of the craft that well therefore make assumptions that apparently aren't true.

    It is still my opinion that this live edge epoxy table movement has caused prices of slab lumber to sky rocket. I prefer to buy my lumber this way, especially in flitches that can warrant great grain matching. But recently they have been separating these slabs and increasing the prices of this lumber much higher than a similar piece without the live edges. I've never used live edges in my work but buying lumber that has been sawn through and through gives me much more options when laying out the pieces. IMO lumber suppliers are taking advantage of this new fad and increasing the cost of live edge lumber slightly unnecessarily. But after reading Scott's post I do understand why the extremely large slabs have a premium price associated with them. It does seem a bit odd that similar sized slabs, one with the live edge left on and one with the edges ripped off would have any difference in price per board foot.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jon Grider View Post
    First, I do not wish to offend anyone, but I very well may and I apologize in advance if you are offended by my post.

    First rant is that I'm way over the "live edge furniture" movement. It floods the on line and Etsy/Pinterest type market and much of it imo cheapens the artistic, functional, and intrinsic value of George Nakashima's work. It seems anyone with four pipe flanges,caps, 3/4" pipe sections and a slab of "live edge" wood views themselves as a creative genius for slapping together a hall table. Yes, I do love the beauty of a slab of figured or even character grade wood and in Georges view, the piece of wood should tell you what it wants to be; that doesn't let the craftsman off the hook as far as designing and building a base or other type component worthy of displaying that slab.

    I buy much of my lumber from area small mill operators and a local on line auction which brings up my second and admittedly selfish rant. For me, the demand for "live edge" lumber has created price increases, lowered the quality, and generally made it tougher to find lumber that has the wane and bark removed. There are bidding wars on "live edge" full of knots, splits, checks, and insects that imo is most suitable for the fireplace. Around here, the lumber that is SLR has a large premium on a service that was for the most part standard a few years ago.

    Apparently there must be a market for this rustic furniture as there is so much of it out there. I just wish this fad would pass. Thanks for listening.

    I became interested in live edge rustic tables, benches, etc. a very long time ago when an early issue of Fine Woodworking did a feature on the then living George Nakishima who worked in PA. It is not a fad in that it's been around much longer, however that isn't said to "make you like it" or not. Fads are more so something that comes and goes and slabs came long ago. I fail to understand a slabs effect on a lumber price in that species? If it does it's from that seller not all sawmills. The Hardwood Market Report is a better price point indicator? Things like recent tariffs, demand for white oak stave grade logs drive prices in the larger world of timber?
    Your "fad" is easily seen in my LR coffee table and end table and much more, built about 40+ years ago. It is a style that fits our log home built from scratch in 1979-80. I'm sure much more recent natural edge items has gone into more modern homes, like the bunch of natural edge shelves i made from walnut for my son in TN kitchen refurb. They actually look quite nice with white china on them. Not all work I do is slabs for sure. I will add that I dislike the use of metal legs as I prefer round turned, wedged tenons in my legs for slabs. OK if you like them but not for me. It is a great way for a entry level wood worker to throw something together who lacks the ability to pull off a large angled hole or turn a leg tenon, etc..

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Camillus, NY
    Posts
    356
    All those darn fads...Louis XIV, Shaker, Colonial, Danish modern, Arts and Crafts, wrought iron, ..... Have built a number of tables - a glued up top is way more predictable than dealing with a large live edge slab. Also, have never heard "Wow, what a table" said about a glued up colonial, but still get that comment about live edge claro walnut or beech tables. Different strokes for different folks.....
    Jerry

    "It is better to fail in originality than succeed in imitation" - Herman Melville

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    29
    Very timely thread. I have been unwittingly sucked into the world of live-edge woodworking. A giant elm tree in our back yard died and we had it taken down last fall. I didn't want it to go the the landfill, so I inquired at the local Woodcraft store and was connected to a gentleman with a bandsaw mill and vacuum kiln. This got totally out of control and I now have 26 large live-edge slabs and about 400 board feet of dimensional lumber. Had to rent a storage unit to store it over the winter.

    What am I going to do with it? Good question. We considered a 3'x6' coffee table for the living room, but it really doesn't fit our 1920s-vintage urban house. Maybe a desk and bookshelves for my home office. My son wants to make a coffee table and my daughter wants a river table (little does she know how much sanding she will be doing).

    The dimensional lumber is another issue. Some of it will be used for trestle bases for live-edge pieces. Some of the boards are 6/4, 8" wide, 12' long, with one-foot sections with interesting quilted figure.

    The elm tree experience prompted me to join SMC. I will be popping in here with lots of questions on working with elm wood.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,367
    You could put the slabs up for sale on craigslist or a similar platform.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Okotoks AB
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    3,499
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    If I were in your position, I'd cut the live edges off some & keep it for my own use & some I'd sell with the live edge on kijiji. It's crazy how much a live edge slab will sell for, even if the quality is poor.

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