Rant, do all dust collectors just #@*#

[Patrick Walsh]

So I have been at war with Felder RL125 for nearly four years now. If you ask around or dig you find the issues with the machine are universal. I spent nearly three hours tonight trying to remedy dust escaping all over my shop yet again for like the bazzilionth time.

As it goes I use my shop here and there hour her hour there and for a full 40hr work week like maybe 4-5 times a year. I have had the machine for four years. Since pretty much the second month I had it the gaskets beneath the filters would blow off. A real pita but problem solved with about 45 minutes worth of work. The real issue is I find the fix lasts at best 10-40 hrs of use. It has become a real nightmare. Tonight it was so bad the whole impeller filled with dust and the whole machine had to be taken apart. I put a fresh bag in vacuumed everything out and I got no dust escarpment. Three passes of a board over the jointer and dust coming right out the top of the machine again. Check the gasket for the fourth time in three hours and the gasket is fine. So I determine the filter must have a rip in it I can’t find.

I go on line to order a new one and they are back ordered 4-6 weeks. I freaking can’t stand this machine!

So the question is this. At work we have a Coral triple bagger. That thing is also a nightmare spewing fine dust everywhere. Then we have a 5hp 3ph Oneida with the round filter thang hangs off the side. That thing is also a piece of crap. That filter doesn’t seal on the bottom where the bottom snaps on and off. And man if you overfill it slightly that filter ends up clogged like a brick and cleaning it is a nightmare like nobody’s business. Then we have a crap little delta single bag that also spews fine dust everywhere.

So what I want to know now after a full four years working in a shop full time. Is dust collection a nightmare regardless of what dust collector you have.

And if not what do I purchase to replace this piece of crap unit I have now.

I’d like to think those fancy $20k units Martin sells are the answer but I don’t have $20k for a dust collector and you know I don’t trust anything related to dust collection and or marketed to the hobby Woodworking crowd. So many bells whistles and marketing gimmicks just reinventing the wheel to sell more stuff.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr..

[Peter Kuhlman]

My limited experience with cyclone systems is that it is critical not to have the collection can or bag fill more than about half way. If allowed to fill too much it starts to back flow and plug up the filter system. Yea it is a real pain. My personal system is an older Woodsucker with the filter cartridge off the side. It plugs up fast with lighter weight wood dust when planing if I don’t keep emptying the collection can. Seems to me in a professional use you would require an adjustable level sensor that shut the machine off.

[peter gagliardi]

I do not know how good they are, or cost, but there is a machine by Harvey, that is on Masswoodworks dot com.
They use them at North Bennet Street School in Boston- I had a tour about a month and a half ago.
Anyway, Bob Miller from OWWM owns that site, maybe you should talk to him.
If they are using them, I think they are probably well vetted.....

[roger wiegand]

The only time I have any problem with mine is when I let the bin overfill. I have a hard time blaming the collector for that, but I wish it had some kind of indication ot alarm. I recently upgraded to a canister filter from the old fiber bag and my air flow nearly doubled, it was an astonishing improvement. Also no more dust blowing out into the shop.

[David Kumm]

I have a four bag Coral with oversize American Fabric Filter bags and unless I'm careless when tightening down the spring clamp, there is no dust. Good singed poly bags and overszing helps a lot. Increasing the filter surface area and reducing the velocity of the air pushing through the felt makes a big difference. My cartridge filters ( I have 4 ) on a Torit cyclone don't spew dust either. They are a pain if you overfill the canister as cleaning is hard. In a commercial environment or with a sander, the direct bagger is easiest to clean but you can't use old bags. Pinholes are like doorways. As to the RL, the small machines have had problems and in my opinion are too complicated to fix and clean vs a traditional cyclone. Like any machine, collectors work but you have to maintain and work within their limits. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

The Oneida I have seems fine to me, but I’d be tempted by something better if not for space constraints.

[Anthony Spotorno]

Honestly, you need to check out the AL-KO, they have many models that are vastly superior to the Felder units. I personally have the AL-KO 200 in my shop, but they do have an AL-KO 160.

I had an Oneida cyclone before this, and dust everywhere... Now nothing and it is quiet enough that I can still function when it is on. I use it for my CNC doing 3d carving and it is on for hours at a time.

I looked closely at Felder's vs AL-KO and several things made me go with AL-KO

1. Autoclean cycle actually works, vs air blowing up against a filter. Constantly hear nightmare stores of Felder people having to jury rig the air to get it to clean the filters and / or spending hours up inside their machine to clean it.

2. My 200 is like Felder's 250 in suction capacity

3. The dust bins seal very nicely against the body. I drop one down and switch out the bag in a min or two, and the inside is very clean!! Instead of one large bin, I have 2 smaller ones to make it easier to clean.

4. Quiet operation, I listened to both units, AL-KO is much quieter!

Please go to Martin USA's site to look at them. They do take a while to order but wow cannot be happier with mine!

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter,

I actually noticed that Harvey unit on Chris halls Blog. Knowing nothing of them it kinda went in one ear and out the other.

Also went in one ear and out the other with the 33 gallon dust bin. I fill a 55 gallon drum in the regular milling stock for just one aspect of a project. So you know I’m more think more collection capacity not less.

but I did just go watch a video on that thing and I gotta say it at least looks like a snazzy unit. It will be interesting to hear back from users after they have some time using them.

You know what persuaded me on my Felder unit was the claim of 99.9% dust collection or less 1% escapement. Along with all those fancy German air standards.

Having now used machines 40-80 hours a week for a number of years I have learnt that most of this stuff is marketing hype and really nothing beats simple robust design and time taken to setup tolls up properly.

I gotta do something though as I use my home shop intermittently. But every time I do use it “like every time” it’s within a couple hours if that that I find myself having to rip my dust collector apart and I’m getting all pissed off that I’m finally getting to build something I want to build and instead I’m yet gain screwing with my $5K pos...

Domyou know anything of the Torit units with pleated filters. I don’t think they will work for me as I need a single phase solution as I’ll only be able to generate enough three phase power for one machine at a time.

Needing a phase converter to run a couple new machines “big money for me” and now it seems I need to sell a dust collector at a loss and buy a new one my shop is gonna be potentially shut down till spring.

So freaking annoying, you live and you learn right..

All i I can hope is that I can afford whatever it cost to make this issue go away. I know I’m not selling the T54 to buy a dam dust collector form AL-CO or whatever.

I do not know how good they are, or cost, but there is a machine by Harvey, that is on Masswoodworks dot com.
They use them at North Bennet Street School in Boston- I had a tour about a month and a half ago.
Anyway, Bob Miller from OWWM owns that site, maybe you should talk to him.
If they are using them, I think they are probably well vetted.....

[Dan Friedrichs]

That's disappointing. I've been eyeing the RL-125 or -140 for awhile...

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a penstate I think 3hp cyclone, after about 3-4 years I noticed a huge decline in suction...yup plugged the filter from letting the bin overflow I suppose, man what a pia to clean out. I just did a quick wacking and compressed air wash of the filter stack and got probably 2-3 gallons of fine dust out, probably more if I spent more time.

Don’t know if that’s normal but sure glad it didn’t spue it in the air, should the cyclone be dropping that fine dust in the bin?

Also, I don’t understand those Felder collector bins aren’t they a pia to empty? Do you have to pull the bag up and over the bin?

mark

[Patrick Walsh]

And the cost,

Am i right its like $20K?

I get like any tool maintenance is mandatory. I suspect as Dave suggested the coral unit at work is more about the seal around the bags or filter bags. Sadly my boss never got the unit together. It had those fabric since straps and he for the longest time would only use black trash bags on it.

The Oneida unit I could see being able to fix with some new gasket. But you know it still fills up much to quickly and then when it does the consequence is just to high.

Yes it’s a fine balance of money spend vrs time spent tending to a tool. One of the things that gets my goat most about dust collection is having to stop working and empty the darn thing more than once a day. Even once a day seems like a lot but you know I can deal with that. Having to stop in the middle of milling a bunch of stock and or be prices material watching with one eye the machine and the other the dust collector is just a headache I gotta find a way around.

But yes this issue goes above maintenance as it’s the design of the unit that is the issue. I see no actually permanent fix. The solution is to just keep doing what I’m doing and honestly I’m more than sick of it.


I gotta play the lottery. This Woodworking crap is so expensive!

Honestly, you need to check out the AL-KO, they have many models that are vastly superior to the Felder units. I personally have the AL-KO 200 in my shop, but they do have an AL-KO 160.

I had an Oneida cyclone before this, and dust everywhere... Now nothing and it is quiet enough that I can still function when it is on. I use it for my CNC doing 3d carving and it is on for hours at a time.

I looked closely at Felder's vs AL-KO and several things made me go with AL-KO

1. Autoclean cycle actually works, vs air blowing up against a filter. Constantly hear nightmare stores of Felder people having to jury rig the air to get it to clean the filters and / or spending hours up inside their machine to clean it.

2. My 200 is like Felder's 250 in suction capacity

3. The dust bins seal very nicely against the body. I drop one down and switch out the bag in a min or two, and the inside is very clean!! Instead of one large bin, I have 2 smaller ones to make it easier to clean.

4. Quiet operation, I listened to both units, AL-KO is much quieter!

Please go to Martin USA's site to look at them. They do take a while to order but wow cannot be happier with mine!

[Kevin Jenness]

Cyclones are great- if the collection bin does not overflow and there are no leaks a well-designed cyclone will keep almost all the dust out of the filters, and if the fan is downstream of the cyclone no chunks will hit the impeller. Where things fall apart is when the bin overfills or there is a leak between the bin and cyclone, then dust gets into the filters and pleated filters are as everybody knows a real pain to clean.

What to do? A bin monitor will help avoid overfilling, and you can, space available, split the cyclone drop and have multiple bins. If there's a leak, track it down with a smoke candle and fix it. If the filter dust pan connection leaks, replace the gasket.

If you can't avoid those problems and you have room, dump the pleated filters and use good tube or bag filters. Oneida and AFF both offer tubes and AFF will make any size custom bag. The only advantage of pleated filters is saving space. Tubes and bags will release dust cake with a good whack and on you go. Maintain a ratio of at least one sq ft of filter per 10 cfm, and more is better.

For production, a rotary airlock under a cyclone dropping into a sealed rolling dumpster works, as does an RAL with a secondary fan blowing into a dump trailer. $$ upfront vs ongoing labor costs.

Yeah, dust collection is a chore but it doesn't have to be a nightmare.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, don't limit yourself to single phase. I run an oversize impeller on a vfd and adjust the hz to dial in the cfm I need. A vfd also gives you soft start to eliminate the huge inrush when you start up with gates open. Dave

[Anthony Spotorno]

I can say I did not pay anywhere close to 20K about little over half that plus shipping.

[John Gornall]

The secret of a dust system is an apprentice. 56 years ago I started my apprenticship and on the first day the boss handed me a broom. After a couple of days when the shop was clean I was assigned to maintain the dust system. 2 - 20 hp fans sucking thru 2 large cyclones up on the roof. I recall the boss explaining that the big bins under the cyclones were able to hold 2 days of chip production. The cyclones had no filters and discharged outdoors. I had to empty the bins at lunch when the machines wete down. Would have been fired if bins were full and I had to shut down production to empty them. Drove a truck under and dumped chips into truck then drove them to the pulp mill.