Advice, please

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I am seeking advice that includes questions about sharpening and whether to purchase a new stone, new chisel(s), neither, or both. It is not my goal to set off another sharpening debate, but I am having some sharpening issues and am asking sharpening questions, and so it seems inevitable that another debate will begin. That's fine; I always learn something new.

As usual, I am quite verbose but wanted to provide enough detail to get informed advice rather than simply raising questions, so please pardon the length of this post.

There are a few things that aren't working as well for me as I'd like with my present setup in regards to sharpening, but I am not convinced that further changes in my sharpening setup are the right answer. Below is a discussion of what I am presently doing and what isn't working for me (hence my seeking advice from the experts); it's my experience alone and is not intended as any kind of support or criticism of what works for someone else. As with all things woodworking, if what you're doing is working well for you, please continue.

First, a bit of background. For about three years now I've been using DMT coarse and extra fine diamond stones followed by a leather or wood strop with Formax green "micro-fine" honing compound. For what it's worth, I am a freehand sharpener mostly because when starting out I didn't want to spend the money to buy a honing guide and after several years of freehand sharpening and after starting to also get into carving (with its wonderful variety of not-so-honing-guide-friendly gouges) I don't presently see a need for a honing guide in my work. I'm not against anyone using them, just don't want one for myself.

My woodworking time is mostly in the evenings once or twice during the week with a good deal more shop time on the weekends when the opportunity arises. I sharpen up whenever the blade I am using is no longer sharp enough to do what I want it to do (so, this differs greatly between, for example, chopping mortises versus paring end grain or smoothing). Whenever I have time, at the end of a woodworking session I sharpen all the blades I have used so that I leave things sharp for next time. The DMT stones I have are pretty well broken in and so I believe I have enough experience with them to pass judgement on the particular examples I have in my shop. With this combination of sharpening media, I have two problems. First, the extra fine diamond stone still has a tendency to "throw a diamond" every couple of weeks (just did so again about two weeks ago); a diamond comes loose from one part of the stone during a stroke with a blade and gets pushed along until it embeds itself farther along in the surface, leaving a rogue diamond sticking up well above its surroundings and leaving a deep scratch in the edge of the blade along with a consistent high spot on the stone until that diamond wears down. This is true of both the 8 inch bench stone in my workshop and the 6 inch "travel size" stone I bring along on business trips to use with my gouges. With all the "rogue diamonds" scattered around (they used to come off at a much higher rate when the stones were new), I tend to get quite a number of deeper scratches from the DMT extra fine stone along with the fine scratches. Is it just a problem with my DMT extra fine stones, or is it a problem with the finer DMT stones in general? Thanks to the deeper-than-grit-size-implies scratches from the "extra fine" stones, especially with the A2 and PM-V11 blades I find myself spending what I consider to be inordinate time on the strop when I want to either smooth or pare, trying to keep from leaving lines in the work. What do I mean by inordinate? I mean that with an A2 #60 1/2 block plane blade or a #5 Stanley replacement PM-V11 blade it takes ~10-15 minutes on the strop working the bevel plus a minute or two of back and forth between bevel and back to chase the burr; my original Stanley #5 O1 plane blade takes noticeably less time, more like 5 minutes or so, but I have to go back to the stone and the strop more often because it doesn't hold the edge I want as long as the PM-V11. So much stropping takes up too much of my valuable shop time, which is often limited to 30 minutes or less while our youngest is napping; I'd rather be working wood than sharpening. My second problem with this setup is that the leather strop rounds off the edge more than I'd like; the edge from whatever angle primary bevel I have comes out somewhere higher than that after 10 minutes (or even a few minutes) on a leather strop. This rounding off is particularly a problem with the gouges. I made a wooden strop, but for the plane blades in particular I didn't like that it was even slower than the leather to give me a smoothing-quality edge and I still had to sharpen on the pull stroke only (I prefer push-pull or side-to-side without losing contact with the sharpening media rather than having to lift and re-set the blade over and over). The wooden strops are not such a speed problem for the gouges--being O1 or similar steel and smaller blades, they don't take so long and I can still avoid rounding the edge and thereby increasing the bevel angle. I still wasn't happy with this system after a few years of working with it, so I decided to get another stone.

Based on what I have read, Arkansas stones are going to be relatively slow thanks to the hard carbides present in the A2 and PM-V11 blades I often use, and aren't likely to get these steels as sharp as a diamond stone or aluminum oxide stone will because they aren't sharpening the carbides themselves so much. My only personal experience with any Arkansas stone is with a multiform slip for my carving gouges, and which I haven't used for A2 or PM-V11. Perhaps I was mistaken in deciding not to get a high-quality Arkansas stone, but I didn't want to spend the money to see for myself only to be disappointed. I also didn't want a finer diamond stone (I don't want to worry about yet more "rogue diamond" issues--I've had more than my fill of those). So, about a month ago I purchased a Pride Abrasives 8000 grit water stone (listed as 2 micron aluminum oxide grit) to try to improve my sharpening setup; when needed, I go from the extra fine diamond stone to the 8000 grit stone and from there to the strop. I find that this stone cuts at least as fast as my extra fine diamond and leaves a sharper edge; based on the cutting speed, I only continue to use the extra fine diamond to reduce the wear on the 8k. The resulting edge has a very consistent scratch pattern instead of having lots of fine scratches with some deep ones, and has a matte finish instead of the polish I've read about for 8k stones. The lack of polish may simply be that the grit is staying sharp as the manufacturer claims it should and is rolling around on the surface during sharpening instead of sticking in place. I don't care about polish, just sharpness; however, this 8k stone doesn't get the blades as sharp as I want. Maybe I'm not using the stone properly: the edge I get directly off the stone is plenty sharp for most applications, but not good enough for paring end grain--I have to go to the strop for that. As hoped, I do indeed spend much less time at the strop; it's now 2-3 minutes for a PM-V11 plane blade instead of 10-15. Much better. The hardwood strop is still slower; more like 5 minutes to paring/smoothing sharpness. So, it seems that I would save time (and get a better edge for paring thanks to the lack of rounding over) if I purchased a finer stone that also cuts faster than the strop. I'm happier now with the amount of time spent sharpening than I was before the 8k stone but not yet happy per se. Maybe I simply don't have enough experience with the 8k yet to know how to use it optimally.

Here's how I am presently using the 8k stone, in case there are suggestions on how I can improve (how could there not be? I'm asking for suggestions on sharpening!): first, if I haven't used the stone in a few days (such that it's dried out a bit--it sits out on my sharpening bench instead of in water) when I expect I'll be sharpening in the next few minutes I squirt water on top of the stone until the soaking in starts to slow down. If I was using it the previous day (or earlier the same day), I start with a quick splash. Then when I am ready to sharpen, immediately before I start on the diamond plate(s) and then again immediately before moving to the 8k I add more water--at this point it stands on the surface. Using fairly light pressure (the weight of the blade plus perhaps the weight of my forearms, but not pressing down per se) I lift the angle slightly from where I had it on the extra fine diamond stone so that I am only working right near the edge, and using a figure-8 pattern (and moving that pattern around over the whole face of the stone) I work the edge until I get a very small burr all the way across. I then chase the burr using just the weight of the blade and a side-to-side sharpening motion until I can't feel it anymore. It takes about 30 seconds or so to raise the burr and another few strokes on the back and bevel to chase it. I have tried push/pull, fully side-to-side, the figure-8, and slightly elliptical motion, and for the initial burr formation they all seem pretty much equivalent but ending with a side-to-side motion for chasing the burr seems to get a sharper edge for me, and the way I am handling the figure 8 gives me a very slight camber that works well for me for smoothing. Am I doing something wrong that is keeping my edge from getting sharp enough to pare end grain pine? I have tried leaving the slurry on the stone between sharpenings, washing it off, keeping standing water in place, letting it "dry" (to the point that the surface is only damp) and I get about the same results. Every time I've tried going from the 8k stone directly to paring end grain hard maple (a "testing" scrap from the current project) compared to a stropped edge I have to apply more force to get a dull-looking surface (think high-grit sandpaper) that doesn't have the silky smooth feel I want. Stropping always fixes this. Results on end grain pine (straight off the 8k) include some crushing of the fibers.

Finally, one of the largest time sinks I presently have in sharpening occurs when I take my bench chisels from the role of chopping mortises (no drilling: I enjoy the process and the skill-building) to being able to pare, such as paring the shoulders of the associated tenons. I have my bench chisels sharpened at what I might call an all-purpose angle. I don't have a number for you, but for these particular chisels it's high enough to chop a couple mortises in hard maple before the edge is visibly damaged (small chips, typically), but low enough that after the strop the same (or approximately the same) angle can pare end grain pine without crushing the fibers. To keep mortising if the edge seems to be perceptibly dulling (taking more effort to chop), I go to the coarse diamond stone to quickly touch up the edge and go right back; if I'm going to chop more than a few mortises I'll temporarily raise the angle of the bevel so that the edge lasts longer. If I am going to pare instead, I use all of my stones (lowering the bevel back down on the coarse stone if i have to) plus the strop. So, I would save time by getting dedicated mortise chisels so I don't damage my bench chisel edges and/or dedicated paring chisels so I don't have to take a mortising-dulled edge back to paring sharpness, or by getting a finer stone that cuts faster than the strop.

So that you can get an idea of what kind of woodworking I do and therefore perhaps provide more-informed advice, some of my near-term and just-completed projects are as follows: a corner bookshelf in hard maple (in progress), a step platform in pine (kind of like a very wide and long footstool, recently completed), a carved picture frame in figured maple (frame completed, relief carving soon to follow); a small sawbench-type "workbench" in pine for my soon-to-be-4-year-old son that he'll be able to use as simply a sawbench later on (just started; borrows heavily from Jim Koepke's sawbench posts: thanks, Jim!); some small dovetailed decorative boxes in oak, maple, and hickory with inlay including a few exotic species; and a bed in cherry.

Any purchases would most likely be of new tools rather than antiques: my shop time is quite limited and I would rather work wood rather than rehab old tools. I am open to antique tools in good condition that would require little to no rehab, however, particularly antique oval bolstered mortise chisels if I could find the size I'd want (5/16 or 3/8 for working with 5/4 stock).

If I were to make a purchase of a sharpening stone, mortise chisel(s), or paring chisel(s), Lee Valley is one of my default options for good tools; every Veritas tool I own is excellent, and I don't see anything from Lie-Nielsen that seems to fit what I'm looking for in any of these categories. I am open to suggestions on alternative vendors. The Ray Iles oval bolstered mortise chisels from Tools for Working Wood, for example, certainly have a good reputation; Derek Cohen's comments, however, regarding a comparison between his Ray Iles and pre-production Veritas mortise chisels have me leaning toward the Veritas if I go the mortise chisel route. For the sharpening stone, it appears that (among Lee Valley's offerings) only the 13k Sigma stone is substantially finer than my Pride Abrasives 8k, and Stuart Tierney is a big proponent of the 13k Sigma. Again, I am open to suggestions. I haven't investigated paring chisels, so I would be happy to hear suggestions there, too, if you believe they're a worthwhile investment for me right now.

So, at long last we come to the meat of my advice-seeking: in your opinion, would I be better off:
1. Improving my technique with the 8k stone (in which case, please provide tips) so that I spend less time on the strop when I want to pare or smooth
2. Adding dedicated paring and mortising chisels to my set so I don't have to worry about the time spent sharpening up to paring level after mortising
3. Purchasing a finer but fast (for its grit level) stone so I can continue using the same chisel set as multi-purpose and avoid rounding the edges on my shoulder plane blade and chisels
4. More than one of the above
5. Something I haven't thought of yet that you would suggest I do instead

Thank you in advance.

Michael Bulatowicz

[David Bassett]

Wow. I hope some of the more experienced sharpeners get through that wall of words. I doubt I have a full solution for you, but a couple thoughts sprang to mind.

First thought was the possibility you're using too much pressure. I've never heard of anyone regularly knocking diamonds out of a DMT plate and rounding an edge on a strop is caused by too much pressure for the strop (or conversely too soft of a strop) or rolling the tool. But if you were rolling the tool you'd have trouble on your stones too.

Next thought is my notes say DiaSharp XF is ~1200 grit. Your extra stone in your sequence should help. Though I've never used, or seen a review of, a Pride stone.

Lastly, Stu's 13000 Sigma was the Power line. LV lists their Sigma stone as the "Power Select II". Since Stu stocked the Select II stones as distinct from the Power stones, it's unclear to me what you'd get from LV. (Search this forum, it was discussed... a couple(?) years ago. IIRC- Select II gives up fresh abrasive and therefore wears much quicker than the stone Stu was recommending.)

It seems like you should be getting better results with what you have. I'd consider myself an "OK" sharpener. But I took some chisels to a class I'd sharpened up to 5K (Suehiro Rika) and Chris Gochnour grabbed one to pare some end grain. When he returned it he commented "that's nice & sharp", so maybe I don't suck as much as I'd assumed. Seems like I'm doing OK with less effort and lesser stones than you have. (Alternate thought: maybe your standards are unrealistically high? )

Oh, another thought about stropping. If you want to experiment with a firmer strop, the old guy that teaches carving at our local Woodcraft strops on the uncoated side of cereal box cardboard taped to MDF. He says it works as well and is cheaper than leather. It'd at least be a cheap way to test my soft strop theory.

[Tom M King]

First, thanks for asking for advice, and not advise.

Just a single point. The Sigma stones are relatively soft. I have some of both the Select II, and Power stones. One of mine, the 10k, I bought from an internet sharpening guru proponent of sharpening only by hand. I've used that stone for at least five years now, and in spite of being flattened many times, it's still full of gouges that it came with.

I think people who only sharpen, or even mostly only by hand, are better served by harder stones like Shaptons.

[Jim Koepke]

David was observant, that is quite a wall of words. Let me attempt to get through it.

with an A2 #60 1/2 block plane blade or a #5 Stanley replacement PM-V11 blade it takes ~10-15 minutes

It was a book on wood carving by Chris Pye that encouraged me to use a strop on my woodworking blades. Before that my only use for a strop was on a straight razor. He also mentions in his book there being no reason for more than 10 strokes on either side of the blade. According to him, more than this is a cause for rounding the edge. Most of the time my blades get ~5 strokes per side if they are stropped.

My finest water stone is a Norton 8000. All the grit charts put it at 3µ size grit particles. It gets hair shaving sharp right off the stone. It wasn't until learning to use water stones that my abilities developed on oilstones. During some experimental sharpening it became clear that stropping can improve an edge but it can also deteriorate an edge. A blade fresh of the 8K stone could shave arm hair. After a few too many strokes on the strop, it could not shave my arm hair.

My belief is a finer stone could give me sharper blades. But to what purpose? Another comment in Chris Pye's book was the test of sharpness for chisels/gouges was the ability to cut across the grain or end grain while leaving a smooth surface. My lowly Norton 8000 is able to produce such an edge.

Paring End Grain.jpg

This blade may have actually been sharpened on an Arkansas stone before this picture was taken. The area directly below the chisel was pared before the shaving that is being lifted in the picture.

Another thought is my chisel set is not for the minimalist. My paring chisels have bevels in the 15-20º range. My firmer chisels have ~30º bevels. A 30º bevel is not as good at shaving end grain or across grain.

A sharp blade makes all the difference. This was done with a very sharp spokeshave blade:

The Beauty of End Grain.jpg

That is the top of a mallet handle.

My technique may be different than yours. For straight edged tools my tendency is to go back and forth as straight as possible. Occasionally a side to side stroke will be used if a blade is giving me some problems. This is usually limited in its use.

For gouges and curved blades other methods such as a figure eight may be used.

One thing that may be of help is if you have a video camera available is to record your sharpening. A view from the side can reveal if you are maintaining a constant angle or if you are rounding your edge during sharpening.

In conclusion:

1) Even after years of sharpening my feeling is my technique is always open to improvement.
2) Yes, a few dedicated paring chisels may be a great investment. My set is old Buck Brothers with low bevels. The O1 steel seems to be better at the low angle bevels than A2. Not sure how low one can go with the PMv11 edges. Only one of my blades is of that composition and it is in a spokeshave.
3) As much as a new finer stone appeals to me, it doesn't really seem to be a solution to anything affecting the edges on my blades. You may find you should invest in a lower grit stone to prep your blade before hitting the 8000.
4) Yep.
5) Try stopping less. At least test your blade straight off the stone before stropping, then again after stropping. You may come to the same conclusion that too much stropping isn't helpful.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Michael

Selecting just a few areas ...

Chasing the burr ... Different steel types leave different wire edges. As do different sharpening media. A2 steel is notorious for creating a tenacious wire. I find the wire off an O1 and PM-V11 blade to be similar. Diamond stones can also be coarser in their work. Further, the size of the wire is going to be related to how you sharpen, for example, whether you are heavy handed when forming the primary bevel.

Waterstones differ in the amount of water they require and also in the amount of slurry they form. Similar grits can be of different hardness. In sum, it is difficult to equate one with another. For several years I have been using the Shapton Pro 1000, preferring it to a Sigma, and then the Sigma 6000/13000 stones. I have not been tempted to change or explore anything else. It works for me, and that is good enough. All I can say it that one should get what works for you, and stick with it for at least 12 months.

Of all the steels easily available - that is, not vintage steels in short supply - two stand out to me as the best. For chisels, there are two: white steel and PM-V11. For plane blades, PM-V11. All the hype about PM-V11 has been verified, not just by myself (and since I have been involved with Veritas for a good many years field testing before production, my word is suspect to some), but also by David Weaver, who has recently completed some extensive testing. He was very skeptical going in, and came out a complete convert. It needs to be noted, however, that chisels are more than just the steel in the blade. They need to feel right in the hand, and work for you as desired. The three chisels sets I use are Koyamaichi, Veritas PM-V11, and Blue Spruce dovetail chisels. The latter are A2, but just so wonderful in the hand - which illustrates my point. At the end of the day, however, it is not the tool that is responsible for the product, but one’s skill in using it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

One thing I didn't see you mention is if you flatten your waterstone or not? From what I have learned and read I dress my stone before using it. I guess I am not 100% the reason for this, but I believe it takes out the fine scratches and highs and lows out from the last sharpening session

Also, maybe you are using to much pressure in the stropping phase? I used to round off edges on my blades when I first started stropping because someone told me 50 strokes as hard as you can on the strop was how they did it. I quickly learned that was bad advice for the tools I use. I have found that when it comes to stropping, for me less is more

I am not an expert, so take what I said for what it's worth, but this is what I have learned from my experience

[Derek Cohen]

Jason, the only stropping I do is really to ensure that the last vestige of the wire is gone. I use a piece of planed hardwood with green compound scribbled on top.

The "50 strokes" is a Paul Sellers thing, and this is because his last stone is a 1200 diamond stone.

Regards from Vienna (presently)

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I sharpen a chisel in about 70 seconds, full flat bevel; I never use a grinder. I have a lot of experience. Here is my advice.

I would lay aside the diamond stones and go with either water stones or oil stones. Look to traditional advice, not gimmicks.

I would buy one mortise chisel, either 1/4 or 5/16. I would buy the Narex chisel. They are a much better design than the Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.

[Jason Buresh]

Hi Derek,

Sorry I meant to reply to the OP but I accidentally replied to you.

Anyway, I have found 10 slow strokes with moderate equal pressure to be all I need on a strop to get an edge good enough for me.

Hello from Wisconsin!

Jason

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello David,



Thanks for your response. Wall of words, indeed; excellent description. Perhaps I am still using too much pressure; noting, however, that the coarse DMT plate has never had any diamonds come loose even though I used to use much higher pressure than I do now; I’ve always used a lighter touch on the extra fine than the coarse. Not that it matters terribly if I’m not going to buy a new stone, but I have found elsewhere (I can look it up and post a link if it’s helpful) Stu saying that Sigma made a decision to market the 13k Power stone under the “Select II” label, but that it’s the same stone.



Based on your experience and Jim’s, it seems 8k should be more than enough.



Best regards,

Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Tom,



Thank you for the feedback. I did find a video of Stu showing off his 1k-6k-13k Sigma Power set, in which he mentioned that the 13k is a rather hard stone (though not as hard as the 6k). As I mentioned in my reply to David, I have also found a post from Stu saying that Sigma decided to market the 13k Power under the “Select II” label. I can provide links to both of these if it helps. Whether what he considers fairly hard is hard enough for my sharpening style, I don’t know; the grooves you describe are indeed concerning if I were to try going that route. Thank you for warning me on this.



Best regards,

Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Jim,

Thanks for your detailed reply (and for making it through the wall); particularly your notes about the 8k stone you use and the resulting sharp edge you obtain. Between your notes (along with Derek’s and Jason’s) about the number of strokes on the strop and Derek’s discussion of the size and tenacity of the burr (particularly in regards to its relationship to how heavy-handed I might be), it seems to me that I am likely greatly underestimating the tenacity of the burrs I am raising on my stones and insufficiently chasing them before moving on—perhaps, I thought, I still have a substantial burr remaining after I think I have chased it. So, I decided to try an experiment. Rather than only chasing the burr until I couldn’t feel it, I continued chasing the burr for another minute or so on the 8k stone. The difference was dramatic; my test chisel does indeed now pare end grain pine straight off the 8k (with little tearing of the end grain). After only a few strokes on the strop, it gave me nice, clean shavings with no tearing of the grain. Thank you so much!

Thank you also for your suggestions on investing in paring chisels and avoiding the finer stone. Do you have a suggestion on grit size for an intermediate stone; perhaps 4k or so to split the difference between the DMT extra fine (nominally ~1200) versus the 8k?

Best regards,
Michael

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Derek,

Thank you for your advice and input as well. As mentioned in my reply to Jim, the combination of your notes regarding the size and tenacity of the burr in particular and your notes (along with Jim’s and Jason’s) regarding number of strokes on a strop led me to try an experiment to find out if I was dramatically underestimating the tenacity of the burrs I was generating. The short version is: I was indeed, and thanks to the advice I’ve received I am now getting paring-level sharpness straight off the 8k stone. It seems likely, then, that I can find room for significant improvement from my other stones as well to reduce my overall sharpening time. This calls for more experiments.

Thank you also for your advice about various steels; I have observed the edge holding of PM-V11 myself in my Stanley-replacement blade for my #5. Sharpened to the level I prefer for smoothing, I have recently found I can flatten and smooth a 1x6x48 inch S4S figured maple board (going deep enough to remove tearout from the lumber mill) and then still take smooth end grain shavings of the same board. I tried again on a second 1x6x48 section cut from the same board with the original blade (OEM Stanley for the Type 11 #5) and after flattening the board the blade was no longer sharp enough for smoothing. I have never tried white steel, though I am now curious regarding whether I should look into white steel paring chisels.

Best regards,
Michael Bulatowicz

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Jason,

You’re absolutely right; I didn’t mention flattening. I’ve been using the DMT coarse stone for flattening, using the technique Stu Tierney showed in a video series showing his 1k-6k-13k set: draw lightly across the top of the stone with a pencil and rub with the diamond stone just until the pencil marks are gone. I haven’t been extremely diligent about this; if I’m sharpening wide blades such as my planes I let it go a few sharpenings between dressing the stone, while if I sharpen a ¼ inch chisel I’ll dress it before the next sharpening session. Thanks also for your notes about stropping. I had been following the advice of Paul Sellers in terms of stropping directly after the extra fine diamond as well as using a good deal of pressure on the strop; I guess I simply got into the habit of doing so after viewing a number of his videos when I first started woodworking. His method clearly works for him and it came in at a lower cost than a number of the other options out there, so that’s how I started out. I clearly stuck with it longer than I should have and it seems perhaps I had been doing it wrong (or at least missing subtleties) the whole time.

Best regards,
Michael Bulatowicz

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Hello Warren,

Thank you for your advice and perspective as well. While I don’t know that I’d go so far as to classify diamond stones as gimmicks, I do indeed get better results from the 8000 grit water stone especially after incorporating the advice I have just received.

Would you elaborate, please, on what makes the Narex mortise chisel a better design?

Best regards,
Michael Bulatowicz