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Thread: Shop heating and cooling

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Kansas City
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    854
    Seems like 2k for installation with all of the necessary extras for installation is what the market around here is set at.

    For those who did went the diy route, it seems like you would need aDHP vacuum and some other specialty tools to do the install. Did you guys buy the tools, rent them? Forego the vacuum altogether?

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    65,675
    Unless you buy one of the few units that have the lines pre-purged (Mr Cool brand I think) you can't avoid the need to do or have that done as your setup. You may be able to find someone who moonlights to take care of that. 'Not sure if the necessary gear is available in rental places or not.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #18
    Yikes, that's steep...

    I bought a cheap vacuum pump with gauges on Amazon for ~$70. Worked great. I think the only other tool I bought was a tube flaring tool (I cut my lines to fit, exactly, so needed to re-flare one end. I think most online sellers also let you choose between several lengths of tubing, so depending on your installation - and willingness to coil up extra tubing - you may not need to bother with that).

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    530
    I bought a pump and gauges as well. Toughest part of the install is making sure the flare joints don't leak. You can get preflared tubing in various lengths. acwholesalers out of Florida is where I bought my unit (Mitsubishi Mr. Slim). Daikon is also supposed to be a decent brand.

    Probably one of the most cost effective paths is to do the install yourself and get someone out to do the commissioning.

    Oh...the power goes to the outside unit, and is feed to the inside via the control cable. (remembered you mentioned the inside unit would be near the panel)

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by John Stankus View Post
    Probably one of the most cost effective paths is to do the install yourself and get someone out to do the commissioning.
    That's a good idea. 95% of the install is just mounting the units, running the wiring, drilling a hole for the tubing, etc. You could probably hire an HVAC guy to come out and vacuum the lines down, flare the tubing, etc.

    (That said, flaring the tubing was probably the most technically challenging part, and it wasn't that bad. It needs to be fairly perfect, but it's just about doing good work - make sure the tubing is cut nice and square, completely debur it, clean it up with a file so you have a nice square and flat surface, and be consistent with following the flaring tool instructions - and it's easy to get good results )

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    65,675
    Many HVAC "firms" will not do the commissioning on a unit they did not sell and install, but as I noted earlier, individual HVAC technicians have been know to "moonlight" for small jobs like this. That's likely who needs to be found. I got lucky in that I'm personal friends with the HVAC company's owners and we worked a deal for the unit and the parts of the installation that were not for me to do.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    N CA
    Posts
    1,279
    I agree that a mini-split heat pump (mshp) is the way to go, I am sure you are best off with the major brands. In my case that is fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Daikin and I guess I can add Gree to that list now too. There are a million brands. Stay away from the Bryant, Carrier, Trade, etc units as they are just private labeled products. NEVER use the flares on the line set as they are provided. They are made to keep the flare nuts on and generally will not see the kind of pressures you see with 410A in heating. If you do install it yourself, do a nitrogen purge first. Buy a really good flaring tool. Years ago I bought the Ritchie (yellow-jacket) version. I did one flare and went over to the tool box and took my 40 yrs of plumbing flaring tool and threw it in the trash. I think you are better off with a pro install. Look on the manuf web-sites at the dealer locators and confirm in your meeting that they have indeed been to the factory trainings. Install it yourself and be prepared for a nightmare dealing with the factory if you have issues. I represented Fujitsu in a six state area for 14 yrs. I heat and cool my home with mshp's They are tremendous technology and much more efficient that the unitary stuff. On the seer ratings, when the 410a units first came out we were hitting 25/6seer. I asked the Japanese engineers if that was accurate. They said,"no, they are actually higher, but the american testing agencies don't have an effective test for modulating equipment." You won't believe how well they work. If you have a pro install make sure they teach you how to remove the entire cabinet. Do not put it to high on the wall. 7-8' is it. Get it to high and with the cabinet removed you have a heck of a time cleaning the back of the coil. Also have them show you how to clean the blower wheel. I have two in the house that I have to clean and I will be stunned and amazed at how well they work once I unload that small diameter fan. Happy Heating.

  8. #23
    I have two Pioneer 24k minit splits. They are four years old and have been serving me well. Pioneer's newer, higher SEER rating units heat to a lower outdoor ambient temperature.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Frederick View Post
    I agree that a mini-split heat pump (mshp) is the way to go, I am sure you are best off with the major brands. In my case that is fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Daikin and I guess I can add Gree to that list now too. There are a million brands. Stay away from the Bryant, Carrier, Trade, etc units as they are just private labeled products. NEVER use the flares on the line set as they are provided. They are made to keep the flare nuts on and generally will not see the kind of pressures you see with 410A in heating. If you do install it yourself, do a nitrogen purge first. Buy a really good flaring tool. Years ago I bought the Ritchie (yellow-jacket) version. I did one flare and went over to the tool box and took my 40 yrs of plumbing flaring tool and threw it in the trash. I think you are better off with a pro install. Look on the manuf web-sites at the dealer locators and confirm in your meeting that they have indeed been to the factory trainings. Install it yourself and be prepared for a nightmare dealing with the factory if you have issues. I represented Fujitsu in a six state area for 14 yrs. I heat and cool my home with mshp's They are tremendous technology and much more efficient that the unitary stuff. On the seer ratings, when the 410a units first came out we were hitting 25/6seer. I asked the Japanese engineers if that was accurate. They said,"no, they are actually higher, but the american testing agencies don't have an effective test for modulating equipment." You won't believe how well they work. If you have a pro install make sure they teach you how to remove the entire cabinet. Do not put it to high on the wall. 7-8' is it. Get it to high and with the cabinet removed you have a heck of a time cleaning the back of the coil. Also have them show you how to clean the blower wheel. I have two in the house that I have to clean and I will be stunned and amazed at how well they work once I unload that small diameter fan. Happy Heating.
    Thanks Jack. I tend to think that with the right tools and training that I could install it myself. But I have neither. And I don't have a lot of natural aptitude for this. I definitely work hard for whatever modicum of skill I have with this kind of thing.

    An HVAC tech quoted me 3200 all in for the base level 18k gree model. Not sure that is the model I want. He said he would install whatever, it will just bump up the cost.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    854
    One tech told me that 12000 btu was enough and priced accordingly. The next told me no way I should go below 18000 btu and that I could never go too big with a unit so long as it has some type of variable speed.

    Given an insulated 30x20 garage with 11 ft ceilings, in an environment where we go between 15-100 degrees seasonally with colder possible, what is the conventional wisdom? 12 or 18? Does it matter? I always heard that too big of a unit would cause issues.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,675
    My shop is similar sized (~23X30X8) and I was told clearly that the 18K BTU was the correct size for my space. With your higher ceilings, I cannot see the 12K BTU being adequate at the extremes of your weather swings unless you have an incredibly well insulated building. 18K BTU will not be too big, IMHO.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #27
    Personally, I would go with the 18k. I've noticed my splits work really hard when the outside temps drop. I have a 24k in 30 x 40 with 12-14 ft ceilings and I wish I had the 36k unit in here when it's really hot or really cold outside.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    854
    Thanks guys. I think I'm going to go with an 18. Seems to be the consensus outside of the two quotes.

  14. #29
    I pump about 400k btus into just over half my shop, balmy 55 degrees in there.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    N CA
    Posts
    1,279
    Your contractor saying that you cannot go to large is not the right way to think about it. I have been selling modulating heating and cooling equipment since '91 and what I have learned is that what is most important to you is not how high it will go, but how low. Oversizing heating equipment, cooling is different, is just so common. Most central systems are about double or more than what is really required. A contractor does a manual J. It says, "X". He then considers the crew who built the place, doesn't believe the number and if a 50 kbtu is sized you will end up with a 75 or 100. He then tells you you will never be cold. Also, the manual J is sized to heat the place at "design conditions." DC is the coldest temp you are likely to see in your area. If you look at the weather statistics you are at design condition less than 2-3% of the heating hours of a season. So you end up oversized by design and then selection. In your case I would go with an 18. I generally push sizing with mini-splits on the low side as I have found they consistently exceed expectations. In a shop environment you will likely not maintain temperatures. The few extra btus will get the temperatures up a bit quicker an the low end of an 18 isn't to far off the 12. I know a contractor who does only Gree's and has good luck with them. Have the contractor show you how to remove the cover so you can clean the coils and the fan. In a shop environment simply cleaning the filters is not enough. I kinda go all in on that cleaning...when I do it. I tape up the wall with poly sheeting and gather that into a garbage can that holds water, Then carefully, once the entire cover is off, vac the face of the coil being careful not to touch the fins. It is then time for a bath on the coil. Once the fan blades get dirty your performance drops off. Some people will remove the fan. I have not, but it is a real pitn to clean the fan in place and do it effectively. The curved blade fans really pick up the dirt. Once you get the crap off the leading edge of the blades you will not believe the difference. I say this as I look at the two evaps I can see in the house and having looked at them yesterday I HAVE to clean them this next week when my wife is out of the house for a few hours.

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