First time CNC potential buy: Laguna vs. ShopSabre

[Zach Duran]

Hi all,
I am about to purchase my first CNC machine. I will be building primarily guitars and other instrument related items.
I was considering the Laguna IQ base model, which would run about 7K.
However, last week my friend told me his coworker was selling a six month old ShopSabre 23 due to needing a bigger machine for his business. The ShopSabre has an upgraded 3.7HP spindle, a slightly larger table and comes with a Oneida dust collector. It would also cost 12K for the machine, slightly used.
Do you guys think the ShopSabre deal is worth almost spending double than the laguna, especially for a first CNC machine?
I am at a point in my life where investing into tools that will last a long time is feasible.
any response and insight will be much appreciated!
thanks

[Jim Becker]

No question I'd most likely take the ShopSabre over the Laguna of those two. It's likely heavier and that beefier spindle will be a nice thing to have and made in USA like my Camaster is. The Oneida system is "worth something" there, too, so the effective cost difference between the two CNC machines is less than it appears when you compare $7K to $12K in that context. Bigger is nicer, too. I started considering small, moved up to 2x4 and ended up with 4x4...with occasional hindsight for larger from time to time. While you "can" do guitar work nicely on a 2x4, 4x4 or larger doesn't hurt you and can be more efficient if you decide to use fixtures or want to work on larger neck-through instruments, not to mention non-luthery tasks and jobs.

You will really appreciate having CNC for your guitar building...it doesn't take away the finesse work, but does alleviate some of the "more boring" hand work as well as lend consistency that's hard to achieve manually.

[Zach Duran]

thanks for the insight Jim. My gut is telling me the ShopSabre is a better bet, even if it is significantly more money. Also, with the option of a 4th axis attachment, that makes it even more enticing for turned projects.

[Scott Buehler]

I have the IQ and have been very happy with it, it's plenty"heavy" for that size machine. I also considered the shop sabre, and I'm sure it is a great machine... Just not 5k better. My 2 cents

[bobby milam]

I would normally say go with the Shopsabre because the Laguna is just a rebranded Chinese machine so you are paying about double what you could get the same machine for without the stickers but there are a few factors that you have to consider. You can get a brand new SS for $7500, granted with a router and not a spindle. If I am not mistaken when I spoke to them a couple of years ago, if you buy it used, they do not transfer the warranty with it, you'll be on your own with it. It has a slightly larger table by a few inches but the Laguna has a higher Z axis which might make a difference to you. They are close to the same weight. The Oneida has value but would it have enough value to you to pay more? Many people have no issues with a harbor freight dust collector at a fraction of the cost. I think you could order the SS and add a spindle and be cheaper than the $12k and have a warranty.

[Greg Parrish]

I would find out what options are on the shop Sabre. Maybe they have every added item. Also what model Oneida dust collector. Then compare but as noted he may be asking full retail or more compared to a new one which is on sale for $7500 right now.

Also check out camaster stinger series in that budget range.

if I’d have had your budget range I would have picked one of the above. I bought a used axiom and while great I would much rather have had one of the above choices. However I paid a fraction of their price used for mine.

[Ronald Blue]

What area are you in? Check the craigslist and marketplace ads for used. I picked up my CAMaster Stinger III X3 SR48 for less than half of new. I think it's almost 3 years old. Often there are some great deals on used out there. At face value that sounds high. But like has been suggested find out what all is there. There might be a lot of extra's.

[Bruce Page]

Zach, just curious if you’ve looked at the Camaster offerings. I’ve had a Stinger SR23 with spindle for over 6 years and have had zero problems or complaints with it, it just does what I tell it. Camaster uses the highly rated WinCNC PC based industrial controller. I don’t know what controller software the others are using but it is something worth considering.

[Jim Becker]

After actually looking at the ShopSabre 23 information after my previous post, I agree with Bruce...be sure you're comparing to Camaster, which is also made in USA (Georgia) and very heavily built. Great company. I'm 100% satisfied with my Camaster. (other than I wish I would have got the 4x8 LOL)

[Zach Duran]

So to keep my options open, I sent a message to Camaster to get a quote on their Stinger 1 and 2 model. The base price is listed on their website, but I would want an upgraded spindle, not a router. I have not heard back from them yet, but from what I could gather, an upgraded spindle would cost $2500-3000. That puts their table top mounted, 2'x3' Stinger 1 at about 9-10k. And their Stinger 2, steel frame, 3'x4' at about 14k-15k.

For the used ShopSabre23, I would be getting a steel frame, 30"x40" table top, with t-slot MDF spoil board. It has an upgraded 3.7HP spindle. He sent me the sales invoice of both the CNC machine and Oneida dust collector, so I know the cost of everything to him as well as all the extra features he upgraded to. It is right at about 16K new to him, so I'd be getting 4k break for a 5 month old machine.

I'm sure between the ShopSabre and Camaster, they would be very comparable machines: USA made, heavy, robust frame, quality of build, etc. I'm slightly hesitant about having a used machine that doesn't have a warranty transferred over. Ugh. First world problems!!! Anyway, I am doing more and more research everyday and just trying to learn as much as I can. I appreciate all of your input and am excited to join the world of CNC!

[bobby milam]

Shop Sabre and camaster are very comparable in quality. The shopsabre is going to have ball screws on each axis and camaster uses rack and pinion I believe. Camaster has a transferable warranty and SS doesn’t but you should call and verify to see if that is still the case. Camaster has good customer service but for some reason they aren’t very quick to respond on quotes for some reason. If you don’t hear back soon go to their forum and ask in there and someone will get hold of them and tell them you haven’t gotten a response. You couldn’t go wrong with either brand.

I think their spindle sizes start out lower than 3.7 hp. About half that size which should be sufficient for a machine that size.

I rarely ever hear about a shopsabre being sold used but I do see Camaster come up fairly often as people realize they need a larger one. What design software does the SS come with carve pro or Aspire. If it doesn’t then that is going to be another cost and if it does there will be a fee to transfer that over to you.

I almost bought a SS but the seller played some games after I came and looked at it. It was a very robust machine for that size of a machine.

I have heard Laguna is hit or miss on their customer support.

Just as a comparison, I ended up with a 4x8 Chinese machine with a 4hp spindle, 8’ 4th axis rotary and around a 3-4 hp double bagger dust collector for $6800 out the door. So you have several options in your price range.

[Jerome Stanek]

I would contact Shopsabre and see if they would provide a warranty plan.

[Brad Shipton]

Shopsabre warranty may transfer to the next person, but I am quite sure the free customer support for the life of the machine does not. Ask the seller if they still have their invoice, and it is likely spelled out there (it was on mine). The support is valuable, but the warranty is not a big deal in my mind since the parts that wear out are not covered.

If I were looking for a 2x3 table I would buy a used machine for sure. Those come up for sale frequently since many want larger tables. The average user in the hobby range does not put a lot of hours on their machines and tend not to push them very hard.

It is all about customer support with any of the "Made in the US" machines in your budget. There is a steep learning curve when you get started, and you will have many questions that are answered far quicker with a phone call than searching online. You also need to keep in mind that some of the "Made in the US" outsource the fabrication of some sub-assemblies to be able to deliver at the prices they do. The Chinese can build a machine every bit as good or better than some of the entry level. The problem buying "made China" is finding a supplier that does not cut too many corners. Gary Campbell has re-built a large number of the smaller machines from China and he had a very useful thread showing all the problems with one when he took it apart.

We had a member here that had 2 of the Laguna machines and he quite liked them. I too think it is hit or miss with them.

[Mark Bolton]

Im not a member, and I wont say it will replace support, but SS has a very aggressive user page on FB that I would imagine would supplant a lot of the direct support you'd go to the Mfr for. I would never speak for the manufacturer but having owned an SS for several years I would be very surprised if they turned their nose up at you for anything other than nuisance support even being the second owner.

Ive read several commercial shops singing the praises of the Laguna machines and support and many shops have multiples on the floor. Its no uncommon to see a shop with a 150k Onsrud or equivalent and a Laguna somewhere down the line for work that fits the machine. Any machine is a roll of the dice. We recently bought a bander from a shop that just moved in a $100K+ Biesse and the new bander was a boat anchor and had not run a job without problem since it hit the floor and they were having nightmares with support. Its just the nature of the beast.

Personally my SS hit the floor and was cutting parts in 4 hours and has only had one hiccup other than operator error since it landed and the problem was a power issue from our utility. I dont think you'd go wrong with a rugged ball screw machine and if the seller is being honest with you and has just outgrown the machine it would seem to be a slam dunk as its had most any potential problem eliminated in the first owners use.