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Thread: DC, which one. Trying to decide.

  1. #1
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    DC, which one. Trying to decide.

    Ok, I basically have never had Dust Collection and have the lungs to prove it. My shop is a "everything" shop, I do auto restoration, metal work and woodwork, so my tools move around the shop a lot. The only 4 items that don't move is the 4-post lift, my metal lathe, mill and my reloading bench, they are permanently placed, everything else on wheels. My life story is that I was a cabinet maker back in the late 70's until the late 80's when my lungs gave out and I switched careers to computers. Because of my lungs, if I can do something in metal I do it but I still have my table saw, band saw, 12" planer those have 4" ports, the 8" jointer has no ports, my router table has 1 1/2" ports and I use a Festool shop vac on it. The shop is 24' x 44' so its good sized but barely enough room to walk around with the 2 cars in it, one on the 4-post and one on the scissor lift. The car on the scissor lift needs a TON of wood work, its coachbuilt (flimsy aluminium skin over a wood frame) and there is almost no wood left. So I need to get back into woodworking on a serious level.

    I want quiet in my shop, i know you can't have a quiet DC and YES I do wear hearing protection to protect what little hearing I have left. My shop was custom built, so its 9' walls with scissor joists (cathedral ceiling), plenty of height for DC. Plenty of electrical power with 50amp and 30amp 220V drops all over the place for my welders and 200amp sub-panel. Because woodworking is not my primary hobby, although it may become that in April when I retire, I really enjoy making sawdust, I don't think I want to do any ducting, just connect each machine one at a time, not against ducting in the future, but not now unless you talk me into it. I do want HEPA level filtering.

    1. I was looking at Clearview, but decided against it because its the nosiest of the bunch and the motor does not like on-off, it more designed to be on all day or at least a few hours at a time.

    2. Laguna PFlux 3, I like this, quiet and some people say it does not seperate well due to the short cyclone but others say that has been fixed.

    3. I am very seriously thinking Oneida V-System 3000, its quiet, pulls dust well, but seems overkill for my needs. I plan on leaving it in the corner near my wood tools and using a 10' 7" flex hose I can get to all my machines and neck down to 4" at the machine, so I would have 10' of 7" hose and a reducer and 2 or 3' of 4" hose at the machine, that DC seems overkill and too big for that task. But it would give me ducting possibilities after I retire if I get back into woodworking which really was my first hobby and I would still do if I had not damaged my lungs. I am aware that flex hose kills CFM, I assume this would work though if I stay with 7" flex until the machine.

    4. Oneida Mini Dust Gorilla seems perfect, enough CFM for my tools, portable, but noisy.

    I also have been reading Bill Pentz site and he says you need 1000CFM to pull fine dust, the mini only has 583CFM so by his theory it would only be a chip collector, not fine dust. I however have been reading his site a lot and I am believing less and less of his ramblings, he is the typical University professor a know-it-all and i have learned most really don't know it all. They may have academic knowledge but not real world smarts, I work at a UC. But Bill seems to be well respected in the DC world so I can't fully discount what he says and that leaves the V-system 3000.

    I really only want to do this only once and I have wifey approval for the costs so....which one ?
    Last edited by Mike Rambour; 11-13-2019 at 1:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    Having been a college professor, I'll stay out of this one.

  3. #3
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    I personally do not believe in "overkill" when it comes to dust collection...and I'm a fan of Oneida. If you're not going to put in duct work and just depend upon a single hose that you move from machine to machine, the roll-around is probably more practical unless you plan on duct work for the near future. A single hose with a fixed position DC isn't necessarily the most convenient thing when it comes to the hose lying about.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
    At least look at the new machine from Oneida; it's pretty practical if you're going to roll it around. Didn't see it on your list.

    And, FWIW, the V3000 comes with a tag (at least mine did) that says approximately: The motor manufacturer recommends starting the motor no more than 4 times per hour.

  5. #5
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    Take advantage of the high taxes we pay and vent outside.

  6. #6
    You should also know the Bill Pentz has an allegy to dust, which is not something that all wood workers suffer from. As a result I think his suggestions are overkill for hobbiests.

    Further his arguments start to break down the moment you try to use some tools like sliding compound miter saws which spew dust everywhere. I've yet to see a solution which works perfectly with a SCMS, due to the nature of the beast.

    It also doesn't sound like you've looked at Grizzly. I've been very happy with my Grizzly Cyclone Dust collector, which is decent quality at an excellent price. For my 2 car garage I found their 2 HP G0443 to be overkill. It gathers all the dust I can, and most of the failures come down to limitations of the shrouds around the machines, rather than a failure of horse power.

    They also have a new set of mobile cyclones akin to the Laguna, though I think both are compromises compared to a stationary DC with duct work. I mention this mainly because it sounds like you're willing to forgo the better performance of a static unit for the flexibility of a mobile cyclone.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    I personally do not believe in "overkill" when it comes to dust collection...
    Truer words were never spoken. I have never seen a post, an article or heard the remark "gee, I wish my dust collector wasn't so powerful".

    The shine has gone off the Oneida apple for me after their last price jump. They are excellent but, like some other things in our world, almost seem priced to dissuade you from buying.

    In short, get the most powerful machine you can. Try to avoid a crippled design like a short-cone or a bolt-on that relies on an unknown blower to just happen to work well with it. Franken-DC's can work well but, for a shorter and more sure road, look at things that are designed to do what they do as a system. Only you can decide which compromises are suitable for your use. If noise level is a priority, you may suffer performance. If height is a challenge, you may have to clean your filter more often. There are lots of give and take options. You need to short list your "gotta-haves" to help you narrow the field. Just my .02.
    I am familiar with modern idioms but they are outside the vocabulary of what I want to say.

    - George Dyson (composer)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Dixon View Post
    Having been a college professor, I'll stay out of this one.
    Sorry to offend someone on my first post here, honest I won't hold your professorship against you, I even like some of them here at my work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F Franklin View Post
    At least look at the new machine from Oneida; it's pretty practical if you're going to roll it around. Didn't see it on your list.

    And, FWIW, the V3000 comes with a tag (at least mine did) that says approximately: The motor manufacturer recommends starting the motor no more than 4 times per hour.
    Do you mean the Supercell ? I did and it was the sales guy at Oneida that shot that one down. And I didn't know about that motor tag, I will ask Oneida, although 4 times an hour seems very possible if using the same tool I can easily see keeping the DC on between cuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew More View Post
    You should also know the Bill Pentz has an allegy to dust, which is not something that all wood workers suffer from. As a result I think his suggestions are overkill for hobbiests.

    Further his arguments start to break down the moment you try to use some tools like sliding compound miter saws which spew dust everywhere. I've yet to see a solution which works perfectly with a SCMS, due to the nature of the beast.

    It also doesn't sound like you've looked at Grizzly. I've been very happy with my Grizzly Cyclone Dust collector, which is decent quality at an excellent price. For my 2 car garage I found their 2 HP G0443 to be overkill. It gathers all the dust I can, and most of the failures come down to limitations of the shrouds around the machines, rather than a failure of horse power.

    They also have a new set of mobile cyclones akin to the Laguna, though I think both are compromises compared to a stationary DC with duct work. I mention this mainly because it sounds like you're willing to forgo the better performance of a static unit for the flexibility of a mobile cyclone.
    I did not know about Bill's dust allergy, I don't have a severe allergy but a day in the shop doing woodwork without a DC and I can't breathe for a few days, I get all stuffy and have to use a inhaler for asthma for a few days, I can go many months without my inhaler othewise. If a DC will help me, I can easily see me getting back into woodworking on a serious basis. I have looked at Grizzly, lets just say i have looked at them all. The G0443 looks like a good one, but by the time i add the silencer and HEPA options, I am at Oneida pricing, so I had removed it from my list. To be fair, I am not sure I need the HEPA option, just seems that with my issues, its a good idea. Although I have read that none of these are really truly HEPA at least they are trying.
    Last edited by Mike Rambour; 11-13-2019 at 3:33 PM.

  9. #9
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    You are asking the wrong question- what you should be asking is what dust collection system (ductwork size and layout) do I need to adequately collect dust and chips from my tools. After you design the ductwork to provide adequate collection from each tool, the answer to what dust collector you need will be answered for you based on the pressure drops and flow requirements of your system. This link provides a good overview of how to design a system that will work:

    https://airhand.com/designing/

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew More View Post
    You should also know the Bill Pentz has an allegy to dust, which is not something that all wood workers suffer from. As a result I think his suggestions are overkill for hobbiests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Rambour View Post
    I did not know about Bill's dust allergy, I don't have a severe allergy but a day in the shop doing woodwork without a DC and I can't breathe for a few days, I get all stuffy and have to use a inhaler for asthma for a few days, I can go many months without my inhaler othewise.
    I try not to be Mr. Doom-and-Gloom. I do not have an allergy to dust however, I am on medication for the rest of my life due to damage from not paying attention to dust collection early on. Just sayin' . . .
    I am familiar with modern idioms but they are outside the vocabulary of what I want to say.

    - George Dyson (composer)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Rambour View Post
    1. I was looking at Clearview, but decided against it because its the nosiest of the bunch and the motor does not like on-off, it more designed to be on all day or at least a few hours at a time.
    Any large single phase motor has the same restriction of not liking to be turned on and off many times per hour (it heats up the capacitors and windings to much leading to early burn up failures).

    A solution is to use a soft start to ramp up the motor speed over several seconds.
    I use a 5hp 3 phase motor on mine powered of a VFD, I set it to ramp up over a very conservative 10 seconds. I can turn it on and off as much as I want.

    Steve

  12. #12
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    Go with an Oneida 3 hp with HEPA level filtering and you will never regret it.
    https://www.oneida-air.com/v-system-...ollector-v2019
    NOW you tell me...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Rambour View Post
    1. I was looking at Clearview, but decided against it because its the nosiest of the bunch and the motor does not like on-off, it more designed to be on all day or at least a few hours at a time.
    I wouldn't rule out the Clearvue based on those points. After trying others I am so glad I bought the 5 hp Clearvue. The power is amazing. It is quiet enough to hear a whisper in the shop once I installed it in a small sound-insulated closet along with the 5hp air compressor. It is in fact a screamer when mounted naked in the shop.

    Where did you read about the need to run it all day? I do leave mine on while working at one machine but never all day or almost never even for an hour - I turn it on when working at a machine then usually turn it off when walking away. Cycling a large motor of ANY type too often can cause overheating, not just Clearvue. I may run mine for 10 or 15 minutes then turn it off for a bit then turn it back on. I read to limit restarts to maybe 6 times per hour under full load - but for a cyclone that means with blast gates open. If you close the blast gates first there is very little load on the motor. I've monitored the external motor temperature with a thermocouple and regardless of how often I turned it on and off it did not overheat. People who turn it on and off ever two minutes might have problems.

    I run 6" ducts to drops then usually switch to one or more 4" at the most machines.

    The long cone cyclone on the Clearvue is incredible at separating the fine dust from the air, the stuff that is bad for breathing. I get talcum-powder like fines in my bin. Virtually nothing even gets to the filter stack. I use a Dylos Pro laser particle counter air quality monitor to verify the efficiency.

    Another nice thing about the Clearvue is when installing it you can watch the separation to verify it's working and there are no leaks in the bins.

    It does take some assembly time, not difficult for an intelligent person capable of setting up and using a shop.

    As for wood dust sensitivity, I've known two woodturners who developed serious wood allergies and had to give up working with wood after years of zero problems running with poor dust collectors. One guy got so bad he had to sell his house and move since he could no longer walk into his shop, even after having it professionally cleaned twice. He took up metal working instead of wood to satisfy his creative drive.

    JKJ

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Cherry View Post
    You are asking the wrong question- what you should be asking is what dust collection system (ductwork size and layout) do I need to adequately collect dust and chips from my tools. After you design the ductwork to provide adequate collection from each tool, the answer to what dust collector you need will be answered for you based on the pressure drops and flow requirements of your system. This link provides a good overview of how to design a system that will work:

    https://airhand.com/designing/
    Well because my garage is a metal shop, auto shop, wood shop, gun shop, whatever my current hobby is shop, my tools move around. My table saw maybe at one end of my 44ft. shop one week and the other end next week. So I can't really plumb it with ducting, it will be flex line to the tools only. Bad design ? yes, I know but currently my shop is in body work mode, I still use old school lead, very little bondo. All the welding is done and I hope to paint the final color coat over thanksgiving week. Then its final assembly of the car and get it out of the garage (son-in-laws car) before xmas and move mine back in which will require lots and lots of woodwork. When on my car, my tools will be in the middle of the shop and yes could be ducted then but they never are in the same place. So the design has to be completely flexible and change one week to the next.

  15. #15
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    Mike, with that much movement and if your larger tools move around a lot, having a DC that also can move around would be my choice, but I'd get the best I could relative to air flow for that purpose. A short hose then helps keep things working with reasonable efficiency. I'd pick that over stretching a long flex hose across the room for sure.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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