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Thread: Why a 12" jointer?

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F Franklin View Post
    Well I respectively disagree. Ripping a board does nothing *for* stability unless you flip alternate boards when you glue them back together, and if you do that, it certainly *does* mess with the visual figure.
    All ripping a board and gluing it back in the same orientation does is allow you to waste less material getting it flat. It's not like the glue provides some anti-warp force.
    Think about what quarter sawn actually means, in your minds eye, on the order of an inch or so (focus) and try to extrapolate to a wider board. It's helpful to have read and absorbed the Hoadley books, which can be transformative if you let them.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Dawson View Post
    Think about what quarter sawn actually means, in your minds eye, on the order of an inch or so (focus) and try to extrapolate to a wider board. It's helpful to have read and absorbed the Hoadley books, which can be transformative if you let them.
    I'm not sure if I follow what your trying to say.... but I agree completely with Paul. Ripping a board in half, then gluing together in the same orientation does nothing for stability. It creates a lot of work, potentially ruins the look of a piece of wood, and does zero for stability. I don't see how comparing quarter sawn lumber would have anything to do with this? But again I admit I may be missing something?

    As far as the OP's question on using a wider jointer, I'm also in the camp of generally trying to face boards full width. Thats not always possible on my 16" jointer, but I go as wide as possible. It makes life much easier than trying to cut boards into narrow widths first. The concept of gluing together narrow strips seems to me to be more akin to factory furniture where the goal is to minimize waste and maximize profitability. I'm not saying this is what your doing, as it sounds like the work you do allows for this method. Its more a generalization on where furniture making is headed.

    If you find your doing fine with a 6" or an 8" or whatever size, then there's really no reason to upgrade. I knew I 'needed' a wider jointer and so I made the decision to find one. I also know I'd 'like' a larger 20" or even 24", but that's not enough reason to upgrade. I'd also have a tougher time fitting a larger jointer into my already overcrowded shop. So basically buy and use what works for you

    good luck,
    JeffD

  3. #18
    I have a 12" jointer because the price of a 16" jointer was twice as much. I often use lumber wider than 12" and would like to be able to joint wider, but rip the wide boards down the center, joint them flat, surface, then try to fit the boards back together to get the grain oriented correctly. All my lumber comes from my farm, sawed on my Cooks MP32 mill.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie McDottie View Post
    I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement.
    There is the clue the answer to your question. Many of us learned long ago that wider lumber is just fine to use and if properly dried and milled, is perfectly stable. I'd rather use three boards for a table top than six or seven any day of the week and if I select the lumber carefully, the joints will be barely visible. My J/P has 350mm capacity (about 13.68") and there are times when I wish I had bought the 410mm (16") version. (I beg favor with another 'Creeker when I need that because he has the 16" machine...and wishes he had wider) Honestly, I haven't glued up a panel in many, many years from narrow boards. I also don't care about the "up/down" thing with growth rings...the best face ALWAYS is the show face. Using joinery that properly accommodates wood movement alleviates any issues with warping, etc., when panels are constructed this way.

    I'm puzzled by your connection between the jointer and the drum sander. To me, they are not related at all. Jointers are for flattening/straightening before thicknessing with the planer. A drum sander to me is a "finesse" tool that's great for leveling slight imperfections after a glue-up or fine tuning the thickness of really thin stock. But a drum sander has no real ability to flatten lumber in the same way that a thickness planer isn't suitable (by itself) for that task, either. (Yes, some folks use a sled to "face joint" boards using the planer)

    BTW, one other important benefit of a wider jointer surface is to be able to straighten/flatten/clean irregularly shaped workpieces, such as curved components, etc.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 11-04-2019 at 10:25 PM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #20
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    If you don't know why you would need a larger jointer; you don't need one.
    When you need one you won't need to ask why.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    If you don't know why you would need a larger jointer; you don't need one.
    When you need one you won't need to ask why.
    This is the truth
    That's just like, your opinion, man.

  7. #22
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    Well there are a boat load of reasons, here is one. Say you want a 12” or 16” 3/4” thick bookmatch from solid, I resaw 7” or 9” wide 10/4, sticker and let rest, then skip dress on jointer sticker and let rest, glue up rip close to 12” or 16” then final joint and plane. Of course this is me being overly anal about preparing lumber...

    limiting your lumber to 4” is why you think you only need an 8” jointer...







    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie McDottie View Post
    I'm in the market for a new jointer. So obviously, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading up on the options/opinions. Currently I'm waffling between an 8" Powermatic HH parallelogram and Laguna 12" HH parallelogram. Blog after blog, forum upon forum, folks seem to all say bigger is better. But I'm not sure why and what sort of work they are doing that drives this thinking.

    I make fine furniture. Tables, beds, boxes, etc. Lots of laminations. In my workflow, I take rough lumber to my jointer to get a clean edge, that then allows me to go to bandsaw for very rough sizing of board width. As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement. Then back to jointer to face and edge joint before thickness planer for thickness, then I glue up. After I use my drum sander for final flattening and cleaning up. The width I get from the drum sander, I could never get from any jointer.

    So I'm left wondering why would I need a jointer wider than 8"? Is there some sort of work that I'm not foreseeing given that I've only been crafting for a few years? Generally, I don't do cabinet work, and even the dressers and cabinets I've made, I've laminated sides, doors, etc. with 3" boards, and couldn't see why I'd go back to the jointer after lamination when I have a 22" wide drum sander. So is that the answer -- the drum sander negates my need for a widest possible jointer? Why get a jointer so much wider than any edge or face width I seem to ever need, given warping and movement concerns?

  8. #23
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    I have a 12" SCMI because I no longer had room for my 24" at my new digs. Miss that 24"..........

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    T
    I'm puzzled by your connection between the jointer and the drum sander. To me, they are not related at all. Jointers are for flattening/straightening before thicknessing with the planer.
    Absolutely. While it isn't the right tool for the job, you can make a drum sander do some of the work of a planer. It will be a poor imitation. To make it do even a poorer imitation of a jointer you'd need to use a sled.

  10. #25
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    I'm in the early stages of learning the craft, and I have a little 6" popcorn Jet jointer. I've also got two kids in college, so I'm only in the "dream stage" of a more permanent jointer. A Grizzly 12" jointer with a HH is $5,000. A 16" Griz is $7,500. It seems to me that a Hammer A3-41 - which gets you a 16" jointer and a 16" planer with HH - comparatively is a pretty good deal. On sale, with a mobility kit and the handy gauge on the wheel, I believe it would cost less than the Griz 16" jointer. Good luck!

  11. #26
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    "I'm puzzled by your connection between the jointer and the drum sander. To me, they are not related at all. Jointers are for flattening/straightening before thicknessing with the planer. A drum sander to me is a "finesse" tool that's great for leveling slight imperfections after a glue-up or fine tuning the thickness of really thin stock. But a drum sander has no real ability to flatten lumber in the same way that a thickness planer isn't suitable (by itself) for that task, either. (Yes, some folks use a sled to "face joint" boards using the planer)"

    My connection between sander and jointer is in regard to what I have read about some people using such wide jointer to clean up laminations, i.e. face/edge joint on jointer, thickness on planer, glue up, then go back to jointer to clean up post glue up. As such, seemingly justifying the need for a wider jointer even if they largely employ 2-4 boards as the stock for their laminations. I wasn't trying to suggest that a drum sander would do the initial face or edging flattening that you achieve with a jointer.

  12. #27
    I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet. I make one face flat with a hand plane. This doesn’t mean planing the whole face. Just knocking the high corners off so it doesn’t rock on a flat bench. Then into the planer. Then flip for the other side. This works perfectly for me every time. Then you’re only limited by the width of your planer. That said I do own a 6” jointer however for edges and boards under 6” in width.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie McDottie View Post
    I'm in the market for a new jointer. So obviously, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading up on the options/opinions. Currently I'm waffling between an 8" Powermatic HH parallelogram and Laguna 12" HH parallelogram. Blog after blog, forum upon forum, folks seem to all say bigger is better. But I'm not sure why and what sort of work they are doing that drives this thinking.

    I make fine furniture. Tables, beds, boxes, etc. Lots of laminations. In my workflow, I take rough lumber to my jointer to get a clean edge, that then allows me to go to bandsaw for very rough sizing of board width. As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement. Then back to jointer to face and edge joint before thickness planer for thickness, then I glue up. After I use my drum sander for final flattening and cleaning up. The width I get from the drum sander, I could never get from any jointer.

    So I'm left wondering why would I need a jointer wider than 8"? Is there some sort of work that I'm not foreseeing given that I've only been crafting for a few years? Generally, I don't do cabinet work, and even the dressers and cabinets I've made, I've laminated sides, doors, etc. with 3" boards, and couldn't see why I'd go back to the jointer after lamination when I have a 22" wide drum sander. So is that the answer -- the drum sander negates my need for a widest possible jointer? Why get a jointer so much wider than any edge or face width I seem to ever need, given warping and movement concerns?

    Ollie
    The tools and machinery folks acquire, is generally a reflection of their interest, the style of the projects they make, the wood they like to work with, and their internal desire. If your projects to date have not necessitated the need for a wider jointer, then you don't need one.
    There are a few statements in your post that are somewhat inconsistent with established practice and knowledge.
    Here are a few;
    The width of the board is not always an indication of stability, or lack of stability. I've had 34" wide boards that haven't warped, twisted,or cupped, in a decade in a non climate controlled garage shop. I've also had 6" drawer stock that wouldn't remain stable to save it's life.
    I have made some pretty large projects through the years that required largish panel glueups. They all remain stable to this day.
    All wood will expand and contract with humidity. Ripping to a lesser width, and regluing, is not going to stop this. I have made cutting boards out of solid 16" wide stock, and I have made them the same width using 2,3, or 4, pieces of material, edge glued. The expansion, and contraction is not significantly less with the glued up panels.
    I try to source the best material I can find. I avoid flatsawn lumber, and typically gravitate toward riffsawn and quartersawn for stability, but again, there are no guarantees. Sometimes even the straightest grained piece of material can be become a banana on the table saw.

    A drum sander and a jointer do not perform the same function. They're completely different machines, for completely different operations.
    You're obviously using your drum sander in a manner that works for you, but it is not "Jointing" the material. You're achieving a statistically flat panel, but that's the extent of it. What is taking you multiple passes to achieve on the drum sander, is accomplished much more quickly with a jointer and planer.
    The jointer makes a flat face, and jointed edge relative to a board face, that is reflective of the setting of the angle of the fence. If the jointer and planer are set up, and being used correctly, the only need for the drum sander is to sand out the imperfections manifested in the glue up of the panel, or any knife marks in the surfaces. The material is statistically flat, and both faces parallel, before the sander is even turned on.

    A wider jointer allows you skew a board across the cutter head.This makes jointing the faces of more difficult grained material easier and less prone to tear out. The same thing is accomplished with a hand plane, in the same manner. If you're only edge jointing with a jointer, you're only using 25% of what a jointer can do.
    I also would not run a glued up panel back through a jointer, or a planer. There is nothing good about mixing dried glue, with sharp metal knives.

    I'm not sure what type of drawers you're making, but mine are always one solid field, or book matched. I've never personally made a drawer out of multiple pieces edge glued. Not that it can't be done, no reason it couldn't. Ive just not done it.

    A 16" jointer is huge for most people. A 6" will get most folks by, but is limited. An 8", in my opinion, is not that much bigger than a 6". A 12" would probably do 90%+ of everything a home shop, or small shop, would need. Well, except for Darcy. I like the 12" size, even though I have a 16" jointer. I also have a 6" jointer.
    I actually think I would have been money ahead, If i had a bought a combination 12" jointer/planer years ago.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie McDottie View Post
    Can I ask what kind of work you're doing that has you face jointing boards that wide? I'm just trying to understand the justification for scope of machine. Stewart Lang above explained his use for slabs/wide live edge boards, and that makes perfect sense. But what other applications am I not considering?
    If you hang out on this forum awhile you'll get a better picture of the members who respond.
    Some buy and sell machinery.
    Some may be more passionate about big machines than the products they craft.
    Some are more value oriented in their advice.

    Just like in real life peoples opinions are based on many things.
    I'm a retired cabinetmaker. I made lots of money woodworking without any jointer. I would never need a big jointer. Processing any wide or long stock on a jointer is a lot of heavy lifting. I use sleds now in my hobby shop and they're almost as fast with less manual labor.
    "Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t - you’re right."
    - Henry Ford

  15. #30
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    I think of the bandsaw, jointer, and thicknesser/planer working together as a team. Joint and edge one side, resaw to near thickness, and then finish thicknessing. To do this for wider boards, all need to share the same capacity: resaw height = jointer- and thicknesser widths. Mine are all at the 12” mark. Most of the rough sawn timber I get is between 10 - 12”.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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